[CAVO] [License-review] OSET Foundation

Thu Sep 10 12:08:16 UTC 2015

Hello Nigel -

Sorry I’m just getting to the party now.

Larry’s emphatic statement that the premise of using GPLv3 for the core parts does not require the non-core parts to be GPL is correct.  This is not an untested interpretation, it is the way the world works today.

If your "constituents" (I feel like I am one, but nobody is asking me) reason for eschewing the GPL is based on a non-true statement, that’s not a good reason to eschew the GPL.

There’s some large amount of FUD surrounding the GPL, and I’m not sure why.  Removing the inaccuracies and misconceptions from the arena might allow people to make informed decisions that enable the creation of truly transparent election software - hopefully the goal of everyone in this discussion.

Because, really, if you want to discard transparency in election software, why bother creating any more?  We have plenty of fraud-based systems out there already.

Thanks,

Brian

> On Sep 9, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com> wrote:
> 
> Nigel Tzeng wrote:
> > And obviously the problem with using GPLv3 for the “core parts of election application stack” is that the non-core parts will have to be GPLv3 as well.  
>  
> That is not true. I've written that publicly myself hundreds of times and by now you should understand it about FOSS licensing. See OSD #1. Look at the entire Linux ecosystem. And read GPLv3. 
>  
> You are the one who is using the invented terms "strong copyleft" and "weak copyleft". We can't avoid them, but these terms are ambiguous. What I asked for in my email is a "strong license" and not a "strong copyleft," and GPLv3 is that.
>  
> Why did you accuse me of "mailing list judo"? Please do not stop CAVO and others from asking for proof of Rationale claims that are asserted for new FOSS license submissions.
>  
> /Larry
>  
>  
> From: Tzeng, Nigel H. [mailto:Nigel.Tzeng at jhuapl.edu] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 3:51 PM
> To: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com>; 'License submissions for OSI review' <license-review at opensource.org>; 'Gregory Miller' <gmiller at osetfoundation.org>
> Cc: 'Christine Santoro' <csantoro at osetfoundation.org>; 'CAVO' <cavo at opensource.org>; 'Meegan Gregg' <meegan at osetfoundation.org>; legal at osetfoundation.org
> Subject: Re: [License-review] OSET Foundation
>  
> Larry,
>  
> Obviously the folks that desire a weak copyleft is the OSET folks.  It is written in their Rationale document.  Assuming that they represent their constituency then those folks also want a weak copyleft.  Or at least is willing to live with one vs either a strong copyleft or permissive license.
>  
> As far as putting you in a false position you declare that "Among the many FOSS licenses, GPLv3 is the most modern, widely accepted, and best understood license available today.”
> 
> 
> That’s hardly the way I would describe a license that wasn’t high on my list of favorite licenses. 
>  
> And obviously the problem with using GPLv3 for the “core parts of election application stack” is that the non-core parts will have to be GPLv3 as well.  You may want that but vendors probably don’t which is part of their constituency.
>  
> Whether strong or weak copyleft is more appropriate for election software is out of scope for license-review.  If you really think CAVO has the better approach with GPLv3 then CAVO can just build a better open stack community.  Compete with your superior repo, not your superior mailing list judo.  Even if you manage to torpedo their license submission you still can’t force them to use GPLv3.
>  
> Nigel
>  
>  
> From: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>
> Reply-To: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 4:31 PM
> To: "Nigel H. Tzeng" <Nigel.Tzeng at jhuapl.edu <mailto:Nigel.Tzeng at jhuapl.edu>>, OSI License Review <license-review at opensource.org <mailto:license-review at opensource.org>>, 'Gregory Miller' <gmiller at osetfoundation.org <mailto:gmiller at osetfoundation.org>>
> Cc: 'Christine Santoro' <csantoro at osetfoundation.org <mailto:csantoro at osetfoundation.org>>, 'CAVO' <cavo at opensource.org <mailto:cavo at opensource.org>>, 'Meegan Gregg' <meegan at osetfoundation.org <mailto:meegan at osetfoundation.org>>, "legal at osetfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osetfoundation.org>" <legal at osetfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osetfoundation.org>>, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>
> Subject: RE: [License-review] OSET Foundation
>  
> There is no desire for "weak copyleft" in this context. CAVO specifically wants the strongest copyleft we can get for election software. I believe that's GPLv3.
>  
> Nigel, please don't put me in the false position of claiming that GPLv3 is good for everything. You know it has never been my favorite license. :-)  But in this case, considering the essential element of public trust in public election software, I want the (psychologically) strongest license in our arsenal. I DO want the public to be comforted by attorneys at the ready to defend software freedom for this GPL application. That will be reassuring around the world.
>  
> I'm not proposing a litmus test for approving (yet another) license. This is a plea for us not to use such a license for the core parts of this specific elections application stack. Use GPLv3.
>  
> /Larry
>  
>  
> From: Tzeng, Nigel H. [mailto:Nigel.Tzeng at jhuapl.edu <mailto:Nigel.Tzeng at jhuapl.edu>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 1:14 PM
> To: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>; 'License submissions for OSI review' <license-review at opensource.org <mailto:license-review at opensource.org>>; 'Gregory Miller' <gmiller at osetfoundation.org <mailto:gmiller at osetfoundation.org>>
> Cc: 'Christine Santoro' <csantoro at osetfoundation.org <mailto:csantoro at osetfoundation.org>>; 'CAVO' <cavo at opensource.org <mailto:cavo at opensource.org>>; 'Meegan Gregg' <meegan at osetfoundation.org <mailto:meegan at osetfoundation.org>>; legal at osetfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osetfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [License-review] OSET Foundation
>  
>  
> When did justification for not using GPL suddenly become a litmus test for new license approval?  I didn’t get the memo about there being OSD #11 License submitter must provide justification for not using GPLV3 because they are involved in software for specific endeavors Larry thinks is important.
>  
> They want a weak copyleft.  GPLV3 isn’t one.  What further justification do you need for not using GPLv3?  They don’t need to provide a point by point refutation of your memo.  At most it’s “tell us why vanilla MPL isn’t satisfactory”.
>  
> From: License-review <license-review-bounces at opensource.org <mailto:license-review-bounces at opensource.org>> on behalf of Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>
> Reply-To: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>, OSI License Review <license-review at opensource.org <mailto:license-review at opensource.org>>
> Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 3:03 PM
> To: 'Gregory Miller' <gmiller at osetfoundation.org <mailto:gmiller at osetfoundation.org>>
> Cc: OSI License Review <license-review at opensource.org <mailto:license-review at opensource.org>>, 'Christine Santoro' <csantoro at osetfoundation.org <mailto:csantoro at osetfoundation.org>>, 'CAVO' <cavo at opensource.org <mailto:cavo at opensource.org>>, 'Meegan Gregg' <meegan at osetfoundation.org <mailto:meegan at osetfoundation.org>>, "legal at osetfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osetfoundation.org>" <legal at osetfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osetfoundation.org>>
> Subject: Re: [License-review] OSET Foundation
>  
> Hi Greg,
>  
> Valid concerns have been raised here and on license-review@ about OSET's attempt to insert a new license into the existing collection for (what we call) invalid reasons. It does not help to have you point repeatedly to your Rationale document and yet refuse to comment specifically on CAVO's.
>  
> What don't you like about GPLv3 for election software?  Please answer specifically.
>  
> I can assure you that government agencies acquire and use GPL software every day!
>  
> I'm adding license-review@ back to this thread so we can all hear your response. If participants here believe that license-discuss@ is a more appropriate venue for this thread, someone please move it there and cut back the other cc's. Thanks.
>  
> /Larry
>  
> From: Gregory Miller [mailto:gmiller at osetfoundation.org <mailto:gmiller at osetfoundation.org>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 11:24 AM
> To: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>>
> Cc: Christine Santoro <csantoro at osetfoundation.org <mailto:csantoro at osetfoundation.org>>; Meeker, Heather J. <hmeeker at omm.com <mailto:hmeeker at omm.com>>; Richard Fontana <fontana at sharpeleven.org <mailto:fontana at sharpeleven.org>>; CAVO <cavo at opensource.org <mailto:cavo at opensource.org>>; Meegan Gregg <meegan at osetfoundation.org <mailto:meegan at osetfoundation.org>>; legal at osetfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osetfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: OSET Foundation
>  
> Good Morning Larry-
> Running into a busy balance of the day here, but with regard to your question, our position is best laid out in our Rationale document, and our recently updated FAQ, both available at www.osetfoundation.org/public-license <http://www.osetfoundation.org/public-license>.
> Thanks very much and have a great day.
> Best
> Gregory
>  
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen at rosenlaw.com <mailto:lrosen at rosenlaw.com>> wrote in relevant part:
>>  
>> ....– please respond directly to my own rationale memo explaining why GPLv3 is the most appropriate license for elections software. Do you disagree and why? 
>> https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss/2014-November/001580.html <https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss/2014-November/001580.html> 
> Gregory Miller
> Co-Executive Director & Chief Development Officer
> OSET Foundation | TrustTheVote Project
> www.OSETFoundation.org <http://www.osetfoundation.org/> | www.trustthevote.org <http://www.trustthevote.org/>
> Twitter: @TrustTheVote | @OSET
> _______________________________________________
> CAVO mailing list
> CAVO at opensource.org
> https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo

Thanks,

Brian
--
Brian J. Fox
Founder/CEO
Opus Logica, Inc.
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