[License-discuss] License-discuss Digest, Vol 148, Issue 4

Crystal Enriquez crystalenriquez10 at yahoo.com
Fri Jul 18 00:40:30 UTC 2025 

Pam discussed this at greater length in one of her comments.  While
>> you've revised the license to remove a lot of the other issues with
>> it, it still does have this fundamental assumption that it's applied
>> to software with a single origin point which will never change, and
>> that the software will be forked *as a whole* rather than being pieced
>> up. Really so you are listening further More than so on and so what are you not going to do it keep wanting to be bad through my school work this was supposed to be a assignment that I created for path and it became slavery tightly and I really appreciate it you stop and think about how you feel if this doesn't work for you and me I have the time to address the problem that people have to day with teachers this was only school work for teachers so I can graduate in a flying color manter and all you can think about is yourself I did make this for the teacher just to Skip me and not send the certificate it been  leaked fromly with words party parking partnering with AI not the name of the person creating AI which is my school work name I would be here with nothing to show for if you keep saying that you're the ideal of my school work and they meaning the judge has ordered a block chain just kindly request.

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: OpenMDW license (Steve Winslow)
  2. Re: Better Attribution License (Formerly Berkeley-Artistic
      License) (retweet.insular.0d at icloud.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2025 10:16:30 -0400
From: Steve Winslow <swinslow at linuxfoundation.org>
To: license-discuss at lists.opensource.org
Subject: Re: [License-discuss] OpenMDW license
Message-ID:
    <CAAK=kdHo4afdvJhMqT8brxgzoK406pkQr1Gb-GKcTL6LTd=TLQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Brian, thanks for raising this -- and Richard, thanks for flagging it
for us. I'm responding on behalf of the Linux Foundation as the OpenMDW
license steward. I was involved along with several other internal and
external participants in drafting OpenMDW-1.0 and its earlier iterations.

We do intend to submit OpenMDW-1.0 to the license-review list to go through
OSI's review process. We are looking to be able to point to broader "use in
the wild" before we do so, in case that's helpful as context for the
community during the review. We're also aiming to be thoughtful about how
this aligns with OSD / OSAID as well as OSI's processes for reviewing
AI-related licenses and distribution terms.

We'll plan to follow up (likely in the near future) with an actual
submission of OpenMDW-1.0 for formal review by the community.

Best,
Steve

On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 9:13 PM Richard Fontana <fontana at sharpeleven.org>
wrote:

> Copying Matt White and Steve Winslow, don't know if they are
> subscribed to this list.
>
> Richard
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2025 at 7:12 PM Brian Behlendorf <brian at behlendorf.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Asking about this here, rather than submitting to license-review, as I am
> > not the license steward, nor am I (any longer) involved in the Linux
> > Foundation.
> >
> > About a month ago, the Linux Foundation released a license applicable to
> > LLM models called the OpenMDW License:
> >
> > https://openmdw.ai/license/
> >
> > The website describes this as an "open source" license, yet I see no
> > attempts (by reviewing the archives of license-discuss and
> license-review)
> > by the authors to bring this to OSI for formal approval. Does anyone see
> > anything in the license that would hinder such approval?
> >
> > I'm personally unclear on the problem this solves. The purpose as stated
> > on the OpenMDW's FAQ reads a bit like "but it goes to 11". It seems like
> > one could have written a guide to distributing a model with existing
> > permissive licensing, as typically the purpose of the software is not
> > really relevant to its licensing.
> >
> > It seems to be emphatic about things that don't need stating, like
> outputs
> > of the model aren't covered by the license - but nor are "outputs" of gcc
> > or LibreOffice.
> >
> > It also doesn't require, as OSAID did, that the underlying data used to
> > train the model weights be published. This is "fine" from a
> > permissive-license POV - I imagine with some digging we can find
> > permissive-licensed-works that contain binary blobs, and we've long
> > accepted closed-source binary firmware updates as a part of the Linux
> > kernel project. So it's still unclear to me that weights couldn't just be
> > distributed under current permissive licenses.
> >
> > The real stand-out portion for me, however, is the second-to-last
> > paragraph, disclaiming responsibility for any IP rights that may some day
> > be associated with the weights or other model materials, even if derived
> > from data not included in the distribution. While the courts have not
> > ruled decisively on this, you would not see AI companies signing deals
> > with content companies to scrape their data if there wasn't at least some
> > OIP risk involved in not doing so. It also seems to ignore that the
> global
> > policy train seem heading in the direction of limiting the ability to
> > disclaim liability in a software license, and that doesn't seem to have
> > changed under the current US administration. The disclaimer seems
> > extraneous, compared to current disclaimers in most permissive licenses.
> > Furthermore to the degree that people rely on that disclaimer, it seems
> > like it can create novel risks that OSS licenses are supposed to be
> > mitigating rather than adding to. This is because if presented with a
> > claim of infringement, there may be no way for the end-user or
> distributor
> > to quickly modify the model by modifying the training set and rebuilding.
> >
> > But none of these concerns are really about potential violations of the
> > OSD.
> >
> > Therefore, for the sake of clarity, if there isn't anything in this
> > license that clashes with the OSD, I humbly suggest it should be proposed
> > by the license steward and considered for approval. That way the use of
> > the term "open source" on the OpenMDW pages is legitimized, and the AI
> > community can be reassured that their "unique" needs are being met - even
> > if OpenMDW is duplicative of existing permissive licenses. Right now I
> > sense a schism emerging between generations that threatens to sideline
> OSI
> > in the minds of developers, and this could be an bridge between the two.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not
> necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Official statements by the
> Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email address.
> >
> > License-discuss mailing list
> > License-discuss at lists.opensource.org
> >
> http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org
>
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2025 08:37:02 +0000
From: retweet.insular.0d at icloud.com
To: license-discuss at lists.opensource.org
Subject: Re: [License-discuss] Better Attribution License (Formerly
    Berkeley-Artistic License)
Message-ID: <1260A958-4007-452C-AFDE-09F387813C6A at icloud.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

On 2025-04-15 03:18, Lucy Ada Randall via License-discuss wrote:
> On 2025-04-15 00:15, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> On 3/22/25 23:15, Lucy Ada Randall via License-discuss wrote:
>>> Standard Version: The project which is the basis for modified 
>>> versions, also known as upstream.
>>> Modified Versions: versions of the source code distributed by the 
>>> project that have been modified, which can be distributed as 
>>> executables, downstream.
>> 
>> I'm aware that this language has been used in other licenses.  It is 
>> not an OSD violation in my opinion. However, since this is a new 
>> license it's worth discussing doing better.
>> 
>> One thing which has always been awkward about this language in those 
>> licenses is: what happens when someone only wants to use *part* of 
>> your code?  For example, a single file, and not any of the rest of the 
>> project?  What's the Standard Version in that case, and what happens 
>> when later projects fork and re-re-share that one file?  What if the 
>> file was actually borrowed under the MIT license from another project, 
>> with the BAL wrapped on top?
>> 
>> Pam discussed this at greater length in one of her comments.  While 
>> you've revised the license to remove a lot of the other issues with 
>> it, it still does have this fundamental assumption that it's applied 
>> to software with a single origin point which will never change, and 
>> that the software will be forked *as a whole* rather than being pieced 
>> up.
>> 
>> The goal here is to make sure that there's credit given to the 
>> "original creator" of the code, correct?
> 
> Yes, while the goal is to create and maintain attribution to an 
> original project, the secondary goal, like with all copyleft licenses, 
> is to spread the license. How this affects partial code reuse is a 
> reasonable question, but the answer is “Like the gpl, partial code use 
> converts the whole project to this license or the snippet of code is 
> sufficiently simple to not be protectable under copyright.” The partial 
> code would be a modified version of the project, thus anything relating 
> to a modified version within the license would automatically apply to 
> the project that the partial code is used in. This is my understanding 
> of licenses like this.
> 
> I understand your hypothetical scenario is specifically constructed to 
> break the attribution requirements of this license in particular, but 
> it immediately demonstrates the lack of consideration for such things 
> in the Copyleft space. The GPL, for example, has an issue of 
> attribution with a full code fork of a GPL or permissively licensed 
> project. This license seeks to fix that at the very least.
> 
> In my non-expert, non-lawyer opinion, MIT licensed code used by the BAL 
> licensed project would still be licensed under the MIT license. Due to 
> how the MIT license works, licensed files would retain their MIT 
> license headers and all code within would remain MIT licensed unless 
> sufficiently delineated. That would remain the case until the files are 
> or the substantial amount of MIT licensed code is replaced. It is up to 
> individual projects as to how code licensed under other licenses are 
> attributed to their respective developers, outside of them needing to 
> be attributed to them at all, and it likewise falls on their shoulders 
> as to how they should handle such code, but it has been taken as 
> standard by myself that the above mentioned protocol is to be used in 
> similar instances where differently licensed projects use MIT licensed 
> files or code.
> 
> A file under the MIT license should not be a vector for “license 
> infection” via its sublicense but despite my opinion on if it should, 
> it legally would be if it can be proven that it has been significantly 
> altered by a project under a stronger copyleft license. This is a 
> side-effect of how these licenses work, and it isn’t a surprise that 
> some assume that partial code use exempts them from following the terms 
> of the license, which isn’t even close to the case. In addition, I 
> agree that this might not have to be explained in as much detail if the 
> license itself explicitly states partial code use requires that the 
> license of the project which uses parts of the standard version must be 
> converted to the BAL, I’ll revise the definitions of the license to 
> incorporate mentions of partial code.
> 
> How’s this? I also removed the mention of being distributable as an 
> executable which I think should not apply.
> 
> Standard Version: The project which is the basis for modified versions, 
> also known as upstream.
> Modified Versions: Partial or whole versions of the source code 
> distributed by the project that have been modified, downstream.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not 
> necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Official statements by 
> the Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email 
> address.
> 
> License-discuss mailing list
> License-discuss at lists.opensource.org
> http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org

I'm returning here to request comment on my new revision of the license, 
this is a full revision with extreme alterations mostly to make my brain 
happy with it and to both address the complaints and display the two 
optional sub-paragraphs. I will submit all valid versions of this 
license individually for approval.

Full Text Below:
The Better Attribution License
I: Metadata: Please see the Metadata file for up-to-date metadata for 
this project. This is only the initial metadata as of the introduction 
of this license.
Project:(project name here)
Project Developer:(developer or team name here)
Contributors: (list of contributors and contributions, [ie. name - 
contribution, contribution, contribution], separated by semicolons, if 
applicable.)

II: Definitions
Standard Version refers to the project which is the basis for modified 
versions, also known as upstream.

Modified Versions refer to partial or whole versions of the source code 
distributed by the project that have been modified, downstream.

The Software refers to the project, which is a collection of files 
distributed by the Project Developer, the "Standard Version", and 
derivatives of that collection of files created through modification of 
the source code, the "Modified Version".

Undue hassle, as mentioned in this license, means requirements to 
receive the source code that restricts the receipt of said source code 
behind acts which may prevent users from requesting it, or providing it 
in a form which prevents easy usage of it. Examples of this include, but 
are not limited to: requiring a phone call to be made when a letter of 
request is sent; requiring a letter to be sent when a phone call is 
made; sending the source code in the form of a book; or sending it in a 
proprietary media format which the user would not be able to access.

III: License Terms
1. You may make and give away verbatim copies of the source form of the 
Standard Version of this Software without restriction, provided that you 
duplicate all of the original copyright notices, this license (including 
the Metadata file), and associated disclaimers.

2. You may apply bug fixes, portability fixes and other modifications 
from the Project Developer or other developers (including yourself) to 
enable this software to work with modern tools, new hardware, new 
operating systems, etc. You may distribute software modified in such a 
way as the Standard Version, so long as you provide the source code of 
that modified software free of charge and without undue hassle to 
purchasers or receivers of said Standard Version under the terms of this 
license.

3. You may distribute this Software, with or without fee, provided that 
you do not advertise the Standard Version of this Software as a product 
of your own.

4. You may redistribute the Standard Version, so long as you provide the 
source code of any binary free of charge and without undue hassle to 
purchasers or receivers of said Standard Version under the terms of this 
license.

5. You may choose to add your name to the contributors list within the 
metadata file, to allow the Project Developer to credit you for your 
modifications in the Standard Version of the Software.

6. Each contributor to The Software hereby grants to you a perpetual, 
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except 
as stated in this paragraph) patent license to make, have made, use, 
offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer The Software, where 
such license applies only to those patent claims licensable by the 
contributor that are necessarily infringed by their contribution(s) 
alone or by combination of their contribution(s) with The Software to 
which such contribution(s) was submitted. If you institute patent 
litigation (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) 
against any party alleging that The Software or a contribution 
incorporated within The Software constitutes direct or contributory 
patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to you under this 
License for that Software shall terminate as of the date such litigation 
is filed.

7. You may otherwise modify your copy of this Software in any way, 
including adding features and self-perceived optimizations of the source 
code, provided that your Modified Version uses this license as modified 
by sub-paragraph 6a (this modified license). Any copy of the Software 
that you modify and distribute, (The Modified Version), in full or 
partial source or binary form, must remain under this modified license. 
You may distribute the Modified Version, so long as you provide the 
source code of any binary free of charge and without undue hassle to 
purchasers or receivers of said Modified Version under the terms of this 
modified license and you must include clear instructions for obtaining 
the source of the standard version. This may be altered by any of the 
sub-paragraphs included below.
  7a. You must modify your license to change the project and project 
developer. Label your Modified Version as the project, and moving any 
prior project developer to be the primary Contributor.
  7b. (Permissive Option): If this sub-paragraph is included, any 
Modified Version may be used, copied, modified, merged, published, 
distributed, sub-licensed, and/or sold under any terms you choose, 
provided that you include the original copyright and attribution 
notices, and keep an up-to-date metadata file with all copies or 
substantial portions of the Modified Version.
  7b. (Network Use Source Requirement Option):  If this sub-paragraph is 
included, if you modify the Software and operate that Modified Version 
to provide any functionality, service, or feature accessible over a 
network (including, but not limited to, hosting, software-as-a-service, 
or web applications), you must make the complete corresponding source 
code of your modified version (including any modifications, scripts, or 
interface code necessary to operate the service) available, free of 
charge, to all users of the service. This source code must be provided 
under the modified license of the modified version, and must include 
clear instructions for obtaining the source of the standard version.

8. Neither the name of the project nor the name, username, handle, etc, 
of the project developer or contributors may be used to endorse or 
promote products derived from this software without specific prior 
written permission.

9. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL 
WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES 
OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE 
FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY 
DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER 
IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING 
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE
-------------- next part --------------
The Better Attribution License
I: Metadata: Please see the Metadata file for up-to-date metadata for this project. This is only the initial metadata as of the introduction of this license.
Project:(project name here)
Project Developer:(developer or team name here)
Contributors: (list of contributors and contributions, [ie. name - contribution, contribution, contribution], separated by semicolons, if applicable.)

II: Definitions
Standard Version refers to the project which is the basis for modified versions, also known as upstream.

Modified Versions refer to partial or whole versions of the source code distributed by the project that have been modified, downstream.

The Software refers to the project, which is a collection of files distributed by the Project Developer, the "Standard Version", and derivatives of that collection of files created through modification of the source code, the "Modified Version".

Undue hassle, as mentioned in this license, means requirements to receive the source code that restricts the receipt of said source code behind acts which may prevent users from requesting it, or providing it in a form which prevents easy usage of it. Examples of this include, but are not limited to: requiring a phone call to be made when a letter of request is sent; requiring a letter to be sent when a phone call is made; sending the source code in the form of a book; or sending it in a proprietary media format which the user would not be able to access.

III: License Terms
1. You may make and give away verbatim copies of the source form of the Standard Version of this Software without restriction, provided that you duplicate all of the original copyright notices, this license (including the Metadata file), and associated disclaimers.

2. You may apply bug fixes, portability fixes and other modifications from the Project Developer or other developers (including yourself) to enable this software to work with modern tools, new hardware, new operating systems, etc. You may distribute software modified in such a way as the Standard Version, so long as you provide the source code of that modified software free of charge and without undue hassle to purchasers or receivers of said Standard Version under the terms of this license.

3. You may distribute this Software, with or without fee, provided that you do not advertise the Standard Version of this Software as a product of your own.

4. You may redistribute the Standard Version, so long as you provide the source code of any binary free of charge and without undue hassle to purchasers or receivers of said Standard Version under the terms of this license.

5. You may choose to add your name to the contributors list within the metadata file, to allow the Project Developer to credit you for your modifications in the Standard Version of the Software.

6. Each contributor to The Software hereby grants to you a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this paragraph) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer The Software, where such license applies only to those patent claims licensable by the contributor that are necessarily infringed by their contribution(s) alone or by combination of their contribution(s) with The Software to which such contribution(s) was submitted. If you institute patent litigation (including a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) against any party alleging that The Software or a contribution incorporated within The Software constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to you under this License for that Software shall terminate as of the date such litigation is filed.

7. You may otherwise modify your copy of this Software in any way, including adding features and self-perceived optimizations of the source code, provided that your Modified Version uses this license as modified by sub-paragraph 6a (this modified license). Any copy of the Software that you modify and distribute, (The Modified Version), in full or partial source or binary form, must remain under this modified license. You may distribute the Modified Version, so long as you provide the source code of any binary free of charge and without undue hassle to purchasers or receivers of said Modified Version under the terms of this modified license and you must include clear instructions for obtaining the source of the standard version. This may be altered by any of the sub-paragraphs included below.
 7a. You must modify your license to change the project and project developer. Label your Modified Version as the project, and moving any prior project developer to be the primary Contributor.
 7b. (Permissive Option): If this sub-paragraph is included, any Modified Version may be used, copied, modified, merged, published, distributed, sub-licensed, and/or sold under any terms you choose, provided that you include the original copyright and attribution notices, and keep an up-to-date metadata file with all copies or substantial portions of the Modified Version.
 7b. (Network Use Source Requirement Option):  If this sub-paragraph is included, if you modify the Software and operate that Modified Version to provide any functionality, service, or feature accessible over a network (including, but not limited to, hosting, software-as-a-service, or web applications), you must make the complete corresponding source code of your modified version (including any modifications, scripts, or interface code necessary to operate the service) available, free of charge, to all users of the service. This source code must be provided under the modified license of the modified version, and must include clear instructions for obtaining the source of the standard version.

8. Neither the name of the project nor the name, username, handle, etc, of the project developer or contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.

9. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE

------------------------------

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