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Hello everyone,<br>
<br>
I saw that Pam asked for more information, so I guess this means the
OSI is willing to accept non-English licenses (wasn't so sure).<br>
<br>
I'm both curious and think I can make some useful comments. As to my
curiosity, we can of course take it elsewhere.<br>
<br>
Most importantly, I don't think a certified translation in itself
will work. I'm doubtful a translator can bridge two legal systems by
themselves.<br>
<br>
If anything Mr Langenheim or we need to provide an English language
text to them to get signed off on.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1P194MB030388356E9B80FECD12ACEDA33E2@VI1P194MB0303.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">more
favourable liability and warranty rights apply, it has not
yet been confirmed by the courts. This results in the risk
that courts may adopt a different legal interpretation in
the event of a dispute, with the result that the statutory
liability limitations of donation law no longer apply.
However, it is particularly important for public law
projects of cities, municipalities, etc. to agree a legally
secure limitation of liability that guarantees a limitation
of liability regardless of the legal classification.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why are cities particularly susceptible to the risk, and not just
anyone (who might be a juicy target)?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1P194MB030388356E9B80FECD12ACEDA33E2@VI1P194MB0303.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Jedem,
der eine Kopie dieser Software und der zugehörigen
Dokumentationsdateien (die „Software“) erhält, wird hiermit
kostenlos die Erlaubnis erteilt, ohne Einschränkung mit der
Software zu handeln, einschließlich und ohne Einschränkung
der Rechte zur Nutzung, zum Kopieren, Ändern,
Zusammenführen, Veröffentlichen, Verteilen, Unterlizenzieren
und/oder Verkaufen von Kopien der Software, und Personen,
denen die Software zur Verfügung gestellt wird, dies unter
den folgenden Bedingungen zu gestatten:</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I would welcome gender neutral language (jedem -> jeder Person
e.g.)<br>
<br>
I wonder about "handeln" (to deal in). I don't think the English
language meaning here is narrowly "to trade in" but rather broadly
what would be "umgehen" in German. I can see that the German
Wikipedia uses "handeln" but that is also just a person hiding
behind a computer screen ;-)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1P194MB030388356E9B80FECD12ACEDA33E2@VI1P194MB0303.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Der
obige Urheberrechtshinweis und dieser Genehmigungshinweis
müssen in allen Kopien oder wesentlichen Teilen der Software
enthalten sein.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Here starts the problem, at least for me, and I don't think a
certified translation can fix this.<br>
<br>
After years and years of listening to my own lawyers / Justitiar now
I still don't fully understand the distinction between Urheber und
Rechtehalter.<br>
<br>
The MIT license uses copyright, the notice is about the party who
holds the exploitation rights / title and provides the rights grant.
<br>
<br>
There is no separate naming of author, which I think would be closer
to Urheber? <br>
<br>
This distinction of copyright holder and author is not uncommon e.g.
you can find<br>
<br>
Copyright (c) 2024 Google Inc, authored by <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:random@google.com">random@google.com</a><br>
<br>
quite often. I suspect this is the crux of the issue but I still
don't understand why you have to emphasize the original author and
not the rights owner.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1P194MB030388356E9B80FECD12ACEDA33E2@VI1P194MB0303.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">DIE
AUTOREN ODER URHEBERRECHTSINHABER HAFTEN UNBESCHRÄNKT BEI
VORSATZ, ARGLISTIGER TÄUSCHUNG, GROBER FAHRLÄSSIGKEIT, DER
VERLETZUNG VON LEIB, LEBEN ODER GESUNDHEIT UND SOWEIT DIE
HAFTUNG GESETZLICH NICHT BESCHRÄNKT ODER AUSGESCHLOSSEN
WERDEN KANN. BEI FAHRLÄSSIGER VERLETZUNG EINER PFLICHT,
DEREN ERFÜLLUNG WESENTLICH FÜR DIE DURCHFÜHRUNG DES VERTRAGS
IST (KARDINALPFLICHT), HAFTEN DIE AUTOREN ODER
URHEBERRECHTSINHABER DER HÖHE NACH BEGRENZT AUF DEN SCHADEN,
DER BEI VERTRAGSSCHLUSS VORHERSEHBAR UND TYPISCH IST.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Since in the disclaimer you now separate author and rights holder,
but tie the later to Urheberrecht, I'm confused some more. You may
have to explain this distinction to us.<br>
<br>
But just to make sure that I understand the intent of the license
more specifically: By singling out the one case where U.S. law might
go wrong when applied in Germany (e.g. disclaiming gross negligence)
you address the problem case explicitly. The rest is intended to
remain as in the original license?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1P194MB030388356E9B80FECD12ACEDA33E2@VI1P194MB0303.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">DIE
VORSTEHENDE HAFTUNGSBESCHRÄNKUNG GILT AUCH FÜR DIE HAFTUNG
DER MITARBEITER, VERTRETER UND ORGANE DER AUTOREN ODER
URHEBERRECHTSINHABER.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Interesting. So employees or agents of a company that open sources
something may be held liable for anything their employer did? Even
if the problematic code was authored by a wholly different employee?
(Sounds insane to me.)<br>
<br>
Cheers, Dirk<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1P194MB030388356E9B80FECD12ACEDA33E2@VI1P194MB0303.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">I
will be happy to answer any further questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:DE">Kind
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:DE">Niccolo</span><span
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style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:DE">Langenheim</span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-ligatures:none;mso-fareast-language:DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Communication from the Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email address.
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Confused about open source?
Get clarity through <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bayave.com/training">https://bayave.com/training</a>
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