<div dir="auto">Nigel,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Why are you presupposing that distributions you receive are noncompliant? That seems key to your argument. It is the same as saying, "If I get some software without complete corresponding source, and then give it to someone else, I won't be compliant."</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Van<br><div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">__________________________<br>Van Lindberg<br><a href="mailto:van.lindberg@gmail.com">van.lindberg@gmail.com</a><br>m: 214.364.7985</div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2019, 8:49 AM Nigel T <<a href="mailto:nigel.2048@gmail.com">nigel.2048@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Pam,<div><br></div><div>My concern is that most software that takes in user data isn't very well equipped to export that user data back out. </div><div><br></div><div>If the <b>code</b> you received from upstream (not user data) can not comply with the user data export requirements of 4.2...whatever those may be...then the downstream user of that code is automatically not in compliance with the license on day 1.</div><div><br></div><div>A simple scenario is I open source a system that lets my clients make appointments with me, see their billing statements, communicate with me, etc under the CAL license. You see this and like it because of open data and transparency and get a copy of my software and begin to use it for your own clients. It's really easy to do as I provided you (or whomever sets up your web site for you) step by step instructions on how to set it up on your own host. </div><div><br></div><div>No need to compile anything, just run my installer, pick a password, fill in some preferences, add your logo and you're ready to go. </div><div><br></div><div>For any other open source license if you provide the source code of my software to your clients you are, as far as I can tell, always in compliance.</div><div><br></div><div>But say I had neglected to provide a way to export some data fields that the client gives me when interacting with the system. You are in breach of the license as is everyone else who used my open source software to serve their own clients.</div><div><br></div><div>All the client user data is certainly available to you as the downstream provider of the software to your clients...it may just a simple SQL statement away or it may require a lot of code changes to make available but either way you DO have it.</div><div><br></div><div>As a potential downstream user looking at my software web page, running on my demo site, etc, how do you know you are actually in compliance without more careful analysis of the system inputs and outputs? Do you not have to remake this assessment every time you upgrade to my latest version? </div><div><br></div><div>I also do not believe that we can assume that the required data is easily ascertainable nor do I believe that you could provide a simple criteria like "received in plain text" given that often the most valuable user inputs are the relationships between data and data groupings they create.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Also the requirement to export <i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">"</i><i style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;white-space:pre-wrap">data has been generated by, for, or has been assigned to the Recipient"</i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;white-space:pre-wrap"> makes the required export data not easily ascertainable.</span></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Nigel</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 10:12 AM Pamela Chestek <<a href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<br>
<div>On 12/10/2019 9:41 AM, Nigel T wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">The <b>software is not a
safety deposit box</b> because of the requirement that you
must also return <i>"</i><span style="background-color:transparent"><i style="color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">data has been generated by, for, or has been assigned to the Recipient". </i><font color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">Safety deposit boxes don't generate new content for users. Software often does. </span></font></span></font></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">
</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color:transparent"><font face="arial,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">Even ignoring generated data that you'd have go though each and every UI screen and make sure all inputs provided by user are correctly mapped to an export field...and you have to do this every time you update from upstream.</span></font></span></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="background-color:transparent"><font color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span></font></span></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="background-color:transparent"><font color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"><b>If the original software cannot export all of the data required to meet the requirements of 4.2 then all subsequent users of the software are in breach of the license.</b> </span></font></span></font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><b>This
is a point that you continue to dance around. </b></font></span><span style="background-color:transparent"><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">You are handwaving significant legal and technical burden you are placing on users of CAL licensed software because you want to extend licensing requirements beyond open </span><b style="white-space:pre-wrap">source</b><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> into open </span><b style="white-space:pre-wrap">data </b></font></font></span><span style="background-color:transparent"><font face="Calibri,
sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">and non-technical users who just use the software out of the box don't control that at all. There are no exceptions for non-compliance of the original code in this license so it's <b>a compliance nightmare</b></span></font></font></span><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"><b> for every downstream user whether they change the code or not</b>.</span></font></div>
<div><span style="background-color:transparent"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><font color="#000000"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span></font></font></span></div>
</blockquote>
Hi Nigel,<br>
<br>
Can you help me understand your point better? Section 4.2.1 says
"Throughout any period in which You exercise any of the permissions
granted to You under this License, You must also provide to any
Recipient <i>to whom you provide services via the Work</i>, ... the
Recipient's User Data in your possession, <i>to the extent that
such User Data is available to You</i> for use in conjunction with
the Work." <br>
<br>
I acknowledge your dislike of the ambiguity of "to the extent that
such User Data is available to You," but I'd like to put that point
aside. For the purposes of argument let's assume that it is an
easily ascertainable set of data, something like "any User Data you
received in plain text." The scenario is that I have received data
about a Recipient from upstream, and now I am providing services to
that same Recipient, which is the only situation in which I would
have to provide User Data. Is your point that the program
architecture may make it too difficult to extract and provide the
plain text that upstream provided to me? Is your argument that there
is something that is not open source about this arrangement, or is
it that the license will be used in situations for which it is
poorly suited?<br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<br>
Pamela S. Chestek<br>
Chestek Legal<br>
PO Box 2492<br>
Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
919-800-8033<br>
<a href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.chesteklegal.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
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