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    I would also comment that I think you have underplayed the
    significance of the scope of copyleft question by characterizing it
    as a "legal mechanism" question. You have not mentioned below that
    this license requires that any newly-written software that
    implements the same APIs must also be under and open source license.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004056.html">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004056.html</a>
    That is a new concept; no copyleft license requirement has been
    applied to code written from scratch. I don't read the thread,
    particularly Richard and Henrik's emails, as suggesting that public
    performance is per se the problem, but rather the concept altogether
    is, no matter how it is implemented.<br>
    <br>
    Pam<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">Pamela S. Chestek<br>
      Chestek Legal<br>
      PO Box 2492<br>
      Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
      919-800-8033<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.chesteklegal.com">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      On 5/13/2019 5:02 PM, VanL wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAFQvZENsA5brxmDhVGTFbRPgcq2wtfCM9wcMkeykzLVrWCzNew@mail.gmail.com">
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                                                          <div>Hello
                                                          all, <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>I wanted
                                                          to stop for a
                                                          minute and
                                                          provide a
                                                          checkpoint: a
                                                          good faith
                                                          summary of
                                                          what I see as
                                                          the arguments
                                                          and
                                                          counterarguments
                                                          about the CAL.
                                                          Please correct
                                                          me if I am
                                                          misrepresenting
                                                          anyone's
                                                          arguments. <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>As far as
                                                          I see it,
                                                          there are two
                                                          substantive
                                                          debates
                                                          occurring over
                                                          the CAL: <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>    1)
                                                          Can data
                                                          portability
                                                          can be
                                                          guaranteed as
                                                          part of
                                                          software
                                                          freedom/under
                                                          the OSD?</div>
                                                          <div>    2) Is
                                                          the legal
                                                          mechanism of
                                                          using "public
                                                          performance"
                                                          effective,
                                                          compliant with
                                                          the OSD, and
                                                          good policy?<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>These
                                                          issues are
                                                          fundamental.
                                                          Regardless of
                                                          how well (or
                                                          how poorly)
                                                          the CAL is
                                                          drafted, these
                                                          cannot be
                                                          resolved
                                                          through more
                                                          precise
                                                          wording or
                                                          better
                                                          examples.
                                                          Other issues
                                                          of wording, or
                                                          clarifications
                                                          about the role
                                                          of patent
                                                          rights have
                                                          been raised,
                                                          but those seem
                                                          to have been
                                                          resolved
                                                          through
                                                          explanation or
                                                          changes to the
                                                          wording. There
                                                          is also a
                                                          third line of
                                                          argument that
                                                          the CAL is too
                                                          complicated,
                                                          and that
                                                          complexity <i>per
                                                          se</i> should
                                                          be
                                                          disqualifying.
                                                          With regard to
                                                          this third
                                                          argument
                                                          regarding
                                                          complexity, it
                                                          seems
                                                          subordinate to
                                                          the
                                                          substantive
                                                          debates above.
                                                          (For an
                                                          example, see
                                                          Perens, ; also
                                                          in rebuttal,
                                                          Villa, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004143.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004143.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>The
                                                          substantive
                                                          arguments
                                                          above
                                                          generally only
                                                          apply to the
                                                          "operator" use
                                                          case, where
                                                          the software
                                                          is being run
                                                          by a first
                                                          user (the
                                                          "operator") to
                                                          provide
                                                          services to
                                                          one or more
                                                          second users
                                                          (the "end
                                                          users").
                                                          Note that the
                                                          linked
                                                          messages below
                                                          are
                                                          *representative*,
                                                          not
                                                          comprehensive.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <b>1.
                                                          Arguments
                                                          about data
                                                          portability:</b>
                                                          The CAL
                                                          conditions the
                                                          exercise of
                                                          copyright and
                                                          patent
                                                          permissions on
                                                          providing data
                                                          portability
                                                          for end users
                                                          of the
                                                          software in
                                                          the operator
                                                          context. This
                                                          is for "User
                                                          Data" as
                                                          defined in the
                                                          CAL, which is
                                                          scoped to data
                                                          that is input
                                                          to or output
                                                          from the
                                                          software in
                                                          which a user
                                                          as a
                                                          preexisting
                                                          interest.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: The
                                                          data
                                                          portability
                                                          provisions
                                                          violate
                                                          freedom zero.
                                                          (Perens, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004121.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004121.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response: Data
                                                          portability is
                                                          in line with
                                                          traditional
                                                          notions of
                                                          software
                                                          freedom
                                                          (Lindberg, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004123.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004123.html</a>),
                                                          see also "CAL
                                                          is a net
                                                          positive
                                                          contribution
                                                          to software
                                                          freedom"
                                                          (Ingo, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004148.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004148.html</a>)
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: It
                                                          is a use
                                                          restriction
                                                          (prohibited
                                                          under OSD 6)
                                                          to deny
                                                          operators the
                                                          ability to
                                                          withhold user
                                                          data from end
                                                          users because
                                                          it applies
                                                          more
                                                          particularly
                                                          in the
                                                          operator case.
                                                          (Perens, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004081.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004081.html</a>,
                                                          <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004036.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004036.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response:
                                                          Operators are
                                                          free to use
                                                          the software
                                                          in any way
                                                          they see fit -
                                                          there is
                                                          nothing in the
                                                          CAL that
                                                          denies them
                                                          the ability to
                                                          use the
                                                          software in
                                                          any particular
                                                          way. They just
                                                          have to take
                                                          the additional
                                                          action of
                                                          providing data
                                                          portability
                                                          along with
                                                          source.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: This
                                                          encumbers data
                                                          that is
                                                          outside the
                                                          scope of the
                                                          license.
                                                          (Perens, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004032.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004032.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response: The
                                                          CAL does not
                                                          create any
                                                          rights that
                                                          did not
                                                          previously
                                                          exist. It does
                                                          not change the
                                                          license for
                                                          any work or
                                                          data.
                                                          (Lindberg, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004033.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004033.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: Data
                                                          is not
                                                          copyrightable,
                                                          so not
                                                          reachable by
                                                          the license.
                                                          (Rosen, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004137.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004137.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response: The
copyrightability or not of data is not relevant to the license; the CAL
                                                          does not
                                                          create new
                                                          ownership
                                                          interests or
                                                          licensing
                                                          rights. (<a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004139.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004139.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument (Ingo
                                                          vs Ingo!): CAL
                                                          may fail OSD
                                                          #6, in similar
                                                          fashion to
                                                          license
                                                          zero... "I
                                                          also agree
                                                          with Bruce
                                                          that this
                                                          whole topic is
                                                          a can of
                                                          worms"
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response:
                                                          Having
                                                          "Freedom to
                                                          run the
                                                          program for
                                                          any purpose"
                                                          includes both
                                                          operator and
                                                          end user as
                                                          people
                                                          "running" the
                                                          program - this
                                                          is the idea
                                                          behind all
                                                          network
                                                          copyleft....
                                                          CAL is scoped
                                                          "in a way that
                                                          is quite
                                                          defensible"
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>(Both are
                                                          Ingo, same
                                                          message: <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004148.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004148.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: Data
                                                          portability is
                                                          an ethical
                                                          restriction
                                                          which doesn't
                                                          belong in a
                                                          license.
                                                          (Cowan, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004140.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004140.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response: The
                                                          CAL limits
                                                          itself to
                                                          permissions
                                                          for the work
                                                          and does not
                                                          invoke ethical
                                                          duties (<a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004108.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004108.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><b>2.
                                                          Arguments
                                                          about the
                                                          legal
                                                          mechanism:</b>
                                                          Open source
                                                          software
                                                          licenses rely
                                                          on
                                                          intellectual
                                                          property law
                                                          to enforce
                                                          their rules
                                                          concerning the
                                                          licensing of
                                                          derived works.
                                                          Most existing
                                                          FOSS licenses
                                                          have used the
                                                          ability to
                                                          distribute the
                                                          work and to
                                                          create
                                                          derivative
                                                          works (both
                                                          under
                                                          copyright) as
                                                          the
                                                          traditional
                                                          "hook" for
                                                          enforcement.
                                                          Some
                                                          alternatives
                                                          do exist: the
                                                          third party
                                                          beneficiary
                                                          language in
                                                          NASA 1.3, and
                                                          the "network
                                                          interaction"
                                                          with a
                                                          modified work
                                                          in AGPL.The
                                                          CAL also uses
                                                          distribution
                                                          and the
                                                          ability to
                                                          create
                                                          derivative
                                                          works as hooks
                                                          for copyleft
                                                          enforcement.
                                                          The CAL also
                                                          uses "public
                                                          performance"
                                                          (either as
                                                          included in
                                                          the copyright
                                                          statute or as
                                                          defined in the
                                                          included
                                                          definition),
                                                          as well as
                                                          patent rights
                                                          (specifically
                                                          "use", "sale,"
                                                          and "offer for
                                                          sale").</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>Most of
                                                          the arguments
                                                          have to do
                                                          with the use
                                                          of public
                                                          performance:</div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: This
                                                          is legally
                                                          untested and
                                                          not necessary
                                                          (e.g. Ingo, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004046.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004046.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response: The
                                                          only other
                                                          license
                                                          applicable in
                                                          an operator
                                                          context is the
                                                          AGPL, which
                                                          uses legally
                                                          novel terms,
                                                          is gameable
                                                          relative to
                                                          enforcement,
                                                          and ambiguous
                                                          in a corporate
                                                          context
                                                          (Lindberg, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004047.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004047.html</a>,
                                                          see also
                                                          Fleming, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004049.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004049.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument:
                                                          Public
                                                          performance is
                                                          US-centric and
                                                          may not be
                                                          applicable in
                                                          the
                                                          international
                                                          context.
                                                          (Chestek, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004054.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004054.html</a>)</div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response: WIPO
                                                          "Communication
                                                          to the public"
                                                          appears
                                                          analogous
                                                          (Atkinson, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004055.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004055.html</a>,
                                                          see also Ingo,
                                                          <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004060.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004060.html</a>),
                                                          and "Public
                                                          performance is
                                                          also a defined
                                                          term"
                                                          (Lindberg, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004108.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004108.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument:
                                                          Public
                                                          performance
                                                          extends
                                                          copyright ("is
                                                          copyright
                                                          maximalist")
                                                          and so should
                                                          be rejected as
                                                          a matter of
                                                          policy.
                                                          (example:
                                                          Henrik Ingo, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004059.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004059.html</a>,
                                                          see also
                                                          Peterson, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004092.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004092.html</a>).
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response:
                                                          "Public
                                                          performance is
                                                          recognized
                                                          under
                                                          copyright" and
                                                          it is better
                                                          to use
                                                          existing legal
                                                          terms
                                                          (Lindberg, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004095.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004095.html</a>,
                                                          see also
                                                          Rosen, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004137.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004137.html</a>,
                                                          but Rosen
                                                          mentions that
                                                          it may be
                                                          limited in
                                                          application)</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Argument: The
                                                          CAL uses
                                                          Oracle v.
                                                          Google-based
                                                          logic
                                                          regarding API
reimplementation, this is premature
                                                          (Fontana, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004062.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004062.html</a>)
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>-
                                                          Response:
                                                          These rights
                                                          already exist,
                                                          this is not an
                                                          extension
                                                          (Lindberg, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004108.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004108.html</a>,
                                                          <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004089.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-May/004089.html</a>).
                                                          Also, the
                                                          structure of
                                                          the CAL does
                                                          not make it
                                                          dependent upon
                                                          a particular
                                                          outcome in OvG
                                                          (Chestek, <a
href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004067.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004067.html</a>)<br>
                                                          </div>
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                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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