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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Luis Villa wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> </span>As with my opening comments about #2, I don't think OSI is well-positioned to objectively evaluate #1 - one person's duplicative is another person's "this is clearly different in important ways!" So, again, I ask: are there proxies we could use for duplicativeness?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This license-review@ list still serves a useful purpose, doesn’t it, even if we’re not always objective? We discuss such “duplicativeness” issues (for free) every time someone takes the trouble to submit a license. If, after listening to us argue, OSI accepts the new license, an irrelevant new license won’t rock the world of software regardless of approval. OTOH, if OSI rejects the license, its author can perhaps appeal to some religious authority or just use the license anyway. It is this OSI review itself that often proves most valuable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In either event, OSI is still relevant to license reviews. If this OSI list is not well-positioned to be proxies for a process that is measured by open source license adoption rather than OSI license approval, then nobody is.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Lawrence Rosen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (<a href="http://www.rosenlaw.com/"><span style='color:blue'>www.rosenlaw.com</span></a>)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Office: 707-485-1242<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Linkedin profile: <a href="http://linkd.in/XXpHyu"><span style='color:blue'>http://linkd.in/XXpHyu</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Luis Villa [mailto:luis@lu.is] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 12, 2013 8:16 AM<br><b>To:</b> Lawrence Rosen; License Review<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-review] License drafting quality and process [was Re: Comment on MOSL and similar licenses]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If the license could be interesting for developers in Europe or if the license steward could propose it for software distribution trough the European Commissions' Joinup.eu platform (this may probably be applicable to most cases), there is currently one way for obtaining free legal suport: </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is great that people can get free legal advice in Europe to develop new open source licenses.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I also agree with Richard Fontana that we don’t want to treat open source licensing like a game that only the rich and their lawyers can play.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>There are also other resources available: SFLC and ifross come to mind. But yes, the general concern is a real concern. Of course, the alternative appears to be badly drafted licenses. I'm not sure how to weight them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> At this stage of our open source paradigm development, however, how many new wrinkles on license provisions are likely to matter? I hope that your group will only provide legal assistance (free or fee-based) to projects that can identify a clear rationale for a new license rather than simply a new way to say the same old things.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In my view, the wrinkles we might actually like in new licenses are those that solve patent problems, or apply in new ways to cloud-based or embedded or mobile software. We don’t need any more Apache or BSD licenses, do we, no matter how eloquently phrased? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I personally have been frustrated by writing licenses that don’t actually rock the world of software; how much more such frustration do license drafters and license reviewers need? This gets back to our old argument about license proliferation. Too many amateurs and their free lawyers writing new licenses will only exacerbate that problem.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And so, to quote Patrice-Emmanuel once again, this is the most important factor:</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>- explanations on your licensing project, why you submit it, why no existing licenses does not fit...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>This is *extremely* important. And something the proliferation report called out in 2006 ;) In particular, it specifically mentioned new criteria for approval:[1]<o:p></o:p></p><ol start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>The license must not be duplicative<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'>The license must be clearly written, simple, and understandable<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>These requirements were never formalized, but they've clearly remained relevant: I kicked off this thread by (implicitly) referencing #2; Larry and Patrice-Emmanuel are (implicitly) referencing #1.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>As with my opening comments about #2, I don't think OSI is well-positioned to objectively evaluate #1 - one person's duplicative is another person's "this is clearly different in important ways!" So, again, I ask: are there proxies we could use for duplicativeness?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Luis<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>[1] A third proposed criteria, "[t]he license must be reusable", has not been a source of problems, as far as I know, since the report was launched.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz [mailto:<a href="mailto:pe.schmitz@googlemail.com" target="_blank">pe.schmitz@googlemail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 08, 2013 7:02 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:license-review@opensource.org" target="_blank">license-review@opensource.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-review] License drafting quality and process [was Re: Comment on MOSL and similar licenses]</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Richard Fontana dixit:</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>> ... access to good legal advice will be unrealistic to many developers, ...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If the license could be interesting for developers in Europe or if the license steward could propose it for software distribution trough the European Commissions' Joinup.eu platform (this may probably be applicable to most cases), there is currently one way for obtaining free legal suport: </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Path:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1. Visit the Joinup Open Source Software page <a href="https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/software/all" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/software/all</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2. Hit the right button "Ask a legal question"</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>3. Fill the form and select the category "Questions on legal issues"</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Example:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#500050'>"I may propose the new license hereunder to Joinup Open Source developpers, do you have any legal comments on the draft and rationale prior submission to OSI?"</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This is possible now, without formal guarantee of course (depending on workload).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It is recommended to prepare two separate sections (to insert in the form or to provide on request to the Joinup team, if too long):</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>- the draft licence</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>- explanations on your licensing project, why you submit it, why no existing licenses does not fit...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Best wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>P-E.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>2013/4/8 Thorsten Glaser <<a href="mailto:tg@mirbsd.de" target="_blank">tg@mirbsd.de</a>><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Richard Fontana dixit:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>>agree. Certainly 'cut and paste isn't sufficient', but access to good<br>>legal advice will be unrealistic to many developers, and yet they seem<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I had Till Jäger from the ifrOSS have a short look-over,<br>which he kindly made for free (though they normally focus<br>on copyleft licences). Probably better than nothing.<br><br>Might be a suggestion. If the prospective author has _some_<br>resources, maybe the ifrOSS would be happy to negotiate;<br>asking them probably isn’t bad.<br><br>On the other hand, I don’t know which legislations they<br>can operate in…<br><br>bye,<br>//mirabilos<br><span style='color:#888888'>--<br> "Using Lynx is like wearing a really good pair of shades: cuts out<br> the glare and harmful UV (ultra-vanity), and you feel so-o-o COOL."<br> -- Henry Nelson, March 1999</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>_______________________________________________<br>License-review mailing list<br><a href="mailto:License-review@opensource.org" target="_blank">License-review@opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-review" target="_blank">http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-review</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-- <br>Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz<br><a href="mailto:pe.schmitz@googlemail.com" target="_blank">pe.schmitz@googlemail.com</a><br>tel. + 32 478 50 40 65 <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>License-review mailing list<br><a href="mailto:License-review@opensource.org">License-review@opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-review" target="_blank">http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-review</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>