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<div class="moz-signature">Comment below.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-signature"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-signature">Pamela S. Chestek</div>
<div class="moz-signature">(in my personal capacity) <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-signature">Chestek Legal<br>
4641 Post St.<br>
Unit 4316<br>
El Dorado Hills, CA 95762<br>
+1 919-800-8033<br>
pamela@chesteklegal<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.chesteklegal.com">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/21/2024 3:45 AM, Lukas Atkinson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJTYOd1jCXgG2r7EGbZfxFsPYLjTrVHhoa1KbDS2Eg-kA_EDxg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
I fail to understand how this MGB license is supposed to be
more patent-friendly than Apache-2.0. I'm not a legal
professional, but licenses would ideally be both legally sound
<i>and</i> comprehensible by lay people.<br>
<br>
The relevant clauses of Apache-2.0 are:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">each Contributor hereby
grants to You a … patent license to make, have made, use,
offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer the
Work, where such license applies only to those patent claims
licensable by such Contributor that are necessarily
infringed by their Contribution(s) alone or by combination
of their Contribution(s) with the Work to which such
Contribution(s) was submitted.</blockquote>
<br>
The corresponding parts of this MGB license:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">each Contributor hereby
grants to You a … license to use, reproduce, prepare
Derivative Works of, publicly display, publicly perform,
sublicense, and to distribute the Work, and Derivative Works
…<br>
This License does not include any express or implied license
to any [patent] that is not necessary to exploit the rights
granted in Section 2.</blockquote>
<br>
You explain as the rationale:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The thought is, if its
necessary to exploit the patent rights to use the licensed
works, Licensees possess the rights, but this is a more
appropriate standard than “if it infringes on a patent, you
have rights to that patent.”</blockquote>
<br>
<div>But these two approaches largely seem to end up with the
exact same rights being licensed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>* Apache: for those patents that are necessary for this
Contribution, Contributor grants a patent license to use.</div>
<div>* MGB: Contributor grants a right to use, including any
implied patent licenses necessary for that use.</div>
<br>
It seems that the word "infringed" in the Apache license is
causing some unease, but both approaches seem to license the
same rights: those patents that would be infringed by use of
the contribution, were it not for this license.<b> What would
be an example scenario where there is a difference</b>,
where the Apache-2.0 would grant a patent license beyond what
is necessary to use the Work?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I second this comment. "A nonexclusive patent license is simply a
promise not to sue for infringement." <i>U.S. Philips Corp. v.
Int'l Trade Comm'n</i>, 424 F.3d 1179, 1189. Procedurally, if
one is accused of infringement, the accused has an affirmative
defense than their infringement is excused by permission given by
the rights holder. <i>Carborundum Co. v. Molten Metal Equip.
Innovations, Inc.</i>, 72 F.3d 872, 878 ("As the alleged
infringer, MMEI had the burden of establishing the existence of an
implied license as an affirmative defense.") So a nonexclusive
license is only a description of what the licensor will allow
others to do that would otherwise infringe the patent, with the
burden on the licensee to prove the existence and scope of the
license.<br>
</p>
<p>The Apache license grants a license to patent claims that are
"necessarily infringed" and the MGB license grants a license to
whatever is "necessary to exploit" the patent claim. Apache
defines the grant by referring to the result (necessarily
infringed) and the MGB license describes it in forward-looking
terms (necessary to exploit). But I don't see any legal difference
between the two, since, no matter how it's phrased, the scope is
the same - the extent of the infringement the licensor will
tolerate. So I also would like to see an example where the scope
of the grant between Apache and MGB is different. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJTYOd1jCXgG2r7EGbZfxFsPYLjTrVHhoa1KbDS2Eg-kA_EDxg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
Another difference is the absence of an explicit license to
"sell" or "import" the Work. If this is an Open Source license
then those would be allowed, so for the avoidance of doubt it
could be worth keeping those two verbs.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Indeed, by taking the word "Copyright" out of Section 2 but not
otherwise amending it to add the patent terms of art you may have
failed to grant a license to sell and import.<br>
<p><snip><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJTYOd1jCXgG2r7EGbZfxFsPYLjTrVHhoa1KbDS2Eg-kA_EDxg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">* I feel uneasy about the combination of the
somewhat implicit patent license in sections 2+3 in connection
with section 8 "no implied rights". Someone might interpret
this as explicitly withholding any patent license, in which
case the license would fail to provide Software Freedom.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I agree these are directly contradictory. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJTYOd1jCXgG2r7EGbZfxFsPYLjTrVHhoa1KbDS2Eg-kA_EDxg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
* I understand the intention of section 7 "personal
information", but find it confusing. Some data is said to be
part of the Work, but then gets a separate usage license. It
uses the term "protected health information" without defining
it. The definition of "personal information" would seem to
include some attribution notices per section 5, then requiring
their removal. Section 7 also includes a requirement to
"inform Licensor", which might go against the traditional
"desert island test" for Software Freedom.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think Section 7 makes the license non-free. In particular:
<p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The Work may include data, graphs, and
models, and if so You
may use and modify the data, graphs, and<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>models. </p>
</blockquote>
That's fine, albeit perhaps unnecessary to state.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">However, You have no license to any
protected health information
(PHI), or other personal information collected by or included
by Licensor,
whether or not de-identified or aggregated. </p>
</blockquote>
So parts of the software are not covered by the license and
therefore non-free. <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">Licensor has no obligation under
this License to provide any such personal information, or to
validate any data
generated by the use of the Work. </p>
</blockquote>
For what it's worth this is fine, but it's unnecessary. What else
in the license would suggest that there <i>is</i> a duty to
provide it? I suppose you could have non-functional software if
it's been removed? But I don't think there is any duty to provide
<i>working </i>software under an open source license.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">For purposes of this License “personal
information” means any information relating to an identified
or identifiable
natural person, including PHI. </p>
</blockquote>
This statement probably belongs in the definitions, since you have
followed the convention of having a section of definitions. And
it's quite unrefined as a definition, reading more as an
afterthought. As Lukas pointed out, this includes the authors
names in notices.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">Licensor has attempted to delete all copies
of
such personal information in the data, and will undertake to
ensure that the
Work does not contain any data with personal information. If
despite Licensor’s
efforts in this regard, You identify any personal information
in the data, You
agree not to use such personal information and to promptly
delete all copies of
such personal information in Your possession, use or control,
and to inform
Licensor promptly of the foregoing so that it can remove such
personal data
from future transmissions of the Work.</p>
</blockquote>
I understand the impulse here, but I don't agree with it. First
off, you're shifting the burden for compliance from you to the
user, but you are in the better position to know whether or not
there is personal information. Further, the benefit of open source
licenses is that they are frictionless. Now, you are telling the
downstream user that they cannot use the software with the
knowledge that all the rights necessary to use the software have
been granted, instead telling them that there might or might not
be something in the software that they are not free to use, which
they have to go find. I believe that the possibility that there
are portions of the software that are not available under the
license is also a violation of open source principles generally.</p>
<p>Moreover, obligations imposed by law and those imposed by the
license are separate and distinct and we frown on efforts to
import obligations imposed by law into the license. All users are
obliged to comply with the law that applies to them, whether or
not a license says so, so there is no need to duplicate the duty
in the license. It also imposes obligations arising in one
jurisdiction on others who might not otherwise have them in their
jurisdiction, a violation of OSD6 (discrimination based on
geographic locale).<br>
</p>
<p>In addition:<br>
</p>
<p>What does Section 4(d) do - how it is different from 4(c), other
than to state it in the inverse?</p>
<p>What is Section 5(d) meant to say and do? Are you suggesting that
those who don't contribute code, but conducted a scientific
experiment, can be listed as authors of the work? The attribution
list is generally understood to be those who have made
copyrightable contributions to the source code file. This is
useful information to have if one needs to contact all the authors
for a license change, although it is being replaced by version
control information. But by adding people who are not copyright
authors you are adding noise to the intended use of the Notice
file. Throwing non-authors into the mix might also invite those
who don't actually have any rights to bring claims premised on the
theory that they do because their name is listed.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJTYOd1jCXgG2r7EGbZfxFsPYLjTrVHhoa1KbDS2Eg-kA_EDxg@mail.gmail.com"><br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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