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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>McCoy wrote: “<span lang=EN-GB>FWIW, I still think these sorts of clauses are unnecessary, although unnecessary clauses aren’t themselves a violation of the OSD (if they were, well, the list would be a lot smaller </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>I don’t think that §15 of AFL/OSL is “unnecessary.” It clarifies what is permitted (“promised by the licensor”) and what is not. That other licenses don’t make similar statements of clarification is their issue, not mine.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>I have moved this response to license-discuss@ at your suggestion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> McCoy Smith <mccoy@lexpan.law> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 8, 2021 2:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> lrosen@rosenlaw.com; 'License submissions for OSI review' <license-review@lists.opensource.org><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [License-review] request for review of the 3D Slicer License<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>I wasn’t talking about your license, Larry, but instead the license currently being requested for approval.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>IIRC your license was approved quite some time ago, so more appropriate for discussion on the license-discuss, not license-review, list. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>FWIW, I still think these sorts of clauses are unnecessary, although unnecessary clauses aren’t themselves a violation of the OSD (if they were, well, the list would be a lot smaller </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif'>😊</span><span lang=EN-GB>).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 8, 2021 2:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'McCoy Smith' <<a href="mailto:mccoy@lexpan.law">mccoy@lexpan.law</a>>; 'License submissions for OSI review' <<a href="mailto:license-review@lists.opensource.org">license-review@lists.opensource.org</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [License-review] request for review of the 3D Slicer License<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you, McCoy, for supporting what I said. But it is important to read the rest of the sentence in §15. By its promise, the licensor disclaims any copyright breach claim if the licensee breaks the law. That is a promise, not a condition. It is completely appropriate in a unilateral contract in which only the licensor makes such promises.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Here is how I describe that legal distinction in the <a href="http://rosenlaw.com/OSL3.0-explained.htm">OSL/AFL description</a>:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black'>As a legal document, OSL 3.0 is drafted as a unilateral contract in which the Licensor makes certain promises and accepts certain obligations. In return, any licensee who accepts and uses the software must honor certain conditions. In a formal sense, in unilateral contracts licensees don't make promises, they merely honor conditions, and so you will find no language in OSL 3.0 to the effect that "licensee promises" anything at all. For example, the obligation to publish source code is an obligation of the Licensor, not a licensee. [§ 3] Reciprocity works indirectly: A licensee's right to distribute Derivative Works is <i>conditioned</i> upon licensing those Derivative Works under the same OSL 3.0 license, whereupon that licensee becomes a Licensor obligated by her own promise to publish Source Code. [§§ 1(c), 3]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>/Larry<span style='font-size:8.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> McCoy Smith <<a href="mailto:mccoy@lexpan.law">mccoy@lexpan.law</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 8, 2021 11:55 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>; License submissions for OSI review <<a href="mailto:license-review@lists.opensource.org">license-review@lists.opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-review] request for review of the 3D Slicer License<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>The difference being that as an agreement in the license, it is a condition—if breached—that can result in termination or a claim of copyright infringement.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>But Larry’s right these sort of license requirements are surplusage; breaking the law is already, well, illegal.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Jun 8, 2021, at 10:46 AM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Pam Chestek wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>I agree that the sentence "You further agree to use, reproduce, make derivative works of, display and distribute the Software in compliance with all applicable governmental laws, regulations and orders, including without limitation those relating to export and import control" is a field of use restriction that we have found unacceptable in the past.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I don’t agree with this. A requirement to obey “applicable” laws is mandatory for every licensor or licensee who wants to stay out of jail. The government will (may!) enforce this provision. Here is AFL 3.0, section 15:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:#444444;background:#FCFCFC'>15) <b>Right to Use.</b> You may use the Original Work in all ways not otherwise restricted or conditioned by this License or by law, and Licensor promises not to interfere with or be responsible for such uses by You.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>/Larry<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: License-review <<a href="mailto:license-review-bounces@lists.opensource.org">license-review-bounces@lists.opensource.org</a>> On Behalf Of Pamela Chestek<br>Sent: Monday, June 7, 2021 9:45 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:license-review@lists.opensource.org">license-review@lists.opensource.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [License-review] request for review of the 3D Slicer License<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On 6/1/2021 1:30 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> On 5/30/21 2:25 PM, Thorsten Glaser wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>> If section B was pulled out, I would recommend that this clause <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>> should not be an agreement but simply inform the user that such <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>>> obligations may exist.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> Oh, good catch! IIRC we have precedence of not allowing such language <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> considering laws differ between places and may change, and because it <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>>> doesn’t belong into a licence anyway.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> ... also because, given a lot of the crazy laws out there, it may be <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> impossible to be in compliance with all such laws.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>I agree that the sentence "You further agree to use, reproduce, make derivative works of, display and distribute the Software in compliance with all applicable governmental laws, regulations and orders, including without limitation those relating to export and import control" is a field of use restriction that we have found unacceptable in the past.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Pam<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Pamela S. Chestek<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Chestek Legal<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>PO Box 2492<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Raleigh, NC 27602<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>pamela@chesteklegal.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>+1 919-800-8033<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Communication from the Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email address.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>License-review mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="mailto:License-review@lists.opensource.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>License-review@lists.opensource.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-review_lists.opensource.org"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-review_lists.opensource.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>The opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and not necessarily those of the Open Source Initiative. Communication from the Open Source Initiative will be sent from an opensource.org email address.<br><br>License-review mailing list<br><a href="mailto:License-review@lists.opensource.org">License-review@lists.opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-review_lists.opensource.org">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-review_lists.opensource.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>