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As I said, it's time to shut this conversation down. No one's mind
is going to be changed no matter how logical or illogical the
arguments. <br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">Pamela Chestek<br>
Chair, License Committee<br>
Open Source Initiative<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/1/2021 5:17 AM, Antoine Thomas via
License-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div dir="ltr">I would like to illustrate with a simplified
example.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let's say I am building special cars for a niche market in
small quantities (e.g. for people with disabilities). I am an
individual, and I work with other individuals, we are not
incorporated (that would be foolish because of the risk, but,
anyway). We are using open source software, and free software,
or any technology available as open source (not just
software), for car controls (engine, security, ...) and
entertainment. People buy the cars and drive them, thanks to
our special technology. The fact is that they are users of the
software, distributed with the car. Anyone, including a
company or a state, can buy and use the car. And that matters:
in this very example, it would mean that a group of people
gathered in a not for profit organisation could own cars and
provide them to people in need (renting, time sharing, ...).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then, let say I add some software released with a leftcopy
license that includes restrictions on corporations and other
organisations. The firmwares is updated on all cars to the
benefits of all users. If my understanding is good, it would
mean that organisations can't anymore own and use the cars,
and their employees or beneficiaries will not be able to drive
them anymore. Only individuals owners can still own and drive
their cars.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then, let's go to the next step. Imagine an individual
stealing one of the cars, and then use it to rob a bank. How
are restrictions in a "don't do evil" license managing that
bad behavior? Is it allowed anyway, because this is done by an
individual, or will you add a clause against it? And, does the
vilain really care about it anyway? Who would you sew because
the terms of the license were not respected? The vilain? The
car owner? Or, eventually, me, the car manufacturer, as the
distributor of the software, because I was not able to ensure
that the license will be respected?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's also a question about third party providers:</div>
<div>- To own and drive a car you must pay an insurance company,
but is this allowed by the license?</div>
<div>- You must go to the mechanic (most often, a company) from
time to time, and they will at least drive the car in their
workshop, or test it on roads, so they will have to use the
software even if it's not allowed to them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And what is happening if me and my associates want to
incorporate?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is actually not viable to make a difference between
individuals and organisations, or discrimination in genaral
between different kind of users: because this is not taking in
account the real life. And it's not just about cars... The
risk to use software with this kind of restriction is then too
high for any one taking care about legal compliance, including
individuals. And that's also the purpose of FSF and OSI
approved licenses: to allow any kind of user to use
the technology. When you think about it, RMS was not an
individual when he had his printer firmware issue, he was
working for MIT.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My point is that it's not just about who can use the
technology to build or develop something. It's also about the
very end users, and all kinds of users.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(please, do not hesitate to correct me if I am
misunderstanding something of if this example is not
appropriate)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Antoine<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 at 05:01,
Johnny A. Solbu <<a href="mailto:johnny@solbu.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">johnny@solbu.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
Tuesday 26 January 2021 17:07, Mat K. Witts wrote:<br>
> > Yes, on its own. It's a group.<br>
> <br>
> Show me the group then. What/who does it contain that is
not either an<br>
> officer, shareholder, subsidiary company, customer,
client or<br>
> representative officer. When you strike out a company,
nobody ceases to<br>
> exist, it's just the legal entity. That ought to tell you
all you need<br>
> to know about what a corporation is.<br>
> <br>
> > You intend to discriminate<br>
> <br>
> Not against any human beings, which is what that section
must surely be<br>
> all about. There is ZERO discrimination against anyone.<br>
<br>
The various FSF and OSI licenses deliberately avoid separating
corporations/companies from actuall people.<br>
Corporations/Companies are treated as any other user and have
all the same freedoms and restrictions as a real human being
has.<br>
<br>
<br>
> > We don't WANT to discriminate, even against "bad"
people.<br>
> <br>
> ...and how's that working out?<br>
<br>
You are missing the point.<br>
<br>
If any govermnent or company manages to completely kill off
the entire human race by using Free Software, they are free to
do so as far as the various Free software licence texts is
concerned.<br>
<br>
There is no way any Free and Open Source licence terms can be
used to even attempt to stop or restrict a government or any
company from using our software for «evil purposes», and this
is /not/ an oversight.<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Johnny A. Solbu<br>
web site, <a href="https://www.solbu.net" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.solbu.net</a><br>
PGP key ID: 0x4F5AD64DFA687324<br>
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