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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bruce, I'm sorry for the harsh tone of my email to you this Friday. A calm weekend has given me time to think the issue through better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I actually agree with you that both the BSD and GPL licenses should be acceptable to "both camps," to use Gil's characterization. Indeed, I have recommended the GPL to some of my clients for various reasons in the past, most recently for open source elections software. It is a "good license," although not the best.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>But I have had some clients, such as the Apache Software Foundation, whose board refused my legal recommendation that they add the GPL to their list of compatible licenses despite my frequent, loud, and sometimes obnoxious insistence that they should do so to encourage the sharing of open source code within our entire community. They insisted that the FSF had a policy of discouraging such uses by ASF, and they would refuse that license for those policy reasons. It is not fun to be a lawyer whose client disagrees with your legal position. As the old saying goes, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't force its head underneath. (Please do not concern yourself that this is perhaps an ad hominem statement that the Apache board are horses, but personally I believe some of them are.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I believe that ALL open source licenses allow source code to be freely copied, although not always for derivative works. I hope that the API boundary line will be clearly defined by the Supreme Court in the <i>Oracle v. Google</i> case. For this the GPL is as "good" an open source license as any of the others. But for that same reason, there is no reason to accept your premise that only a few licenses are enough. Licenses serve many competing interests and policy values. More licenses don't hurt, although they may exceed the limited attention of engineers to legal matters. So what? So long as the result is free software that can be shared worldwide for almost all common purposes, I'm happy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>So, I shouldn't have criticized you for complimenting the acceptability of the GPL, although I still don't like your criticizing all the other good open source licenses that innovative attorneys create.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>/Larry</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>This email is licensed under </span><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/"><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#0563C1'>CC-BY-4.0</span></a><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>. Please copy freely.</span><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <img border=0 width=89 height=31 style='width:.9236in;height:.3263in' id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D58716.14AF22F0"></span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18, 2019 9:56 AM<br><b>To:</b> license-discuss@lists.opensource.org<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Bruce Perens' <bruce@perens.com>; Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [License-discuss] [License-review] Coherent Open Source - Getting underway next Friday<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bruce, your opinions are not shared by me and many others. I do not think it would be useful to repeat here my frequent arguments against your view. Fortunately, your vote is minimal. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>By way of contrast, I appreciate Gil's views. FSF needs to change its opinions about license interworking before many will accept those licenses.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Enough from me....<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b>From:</b> License-discuss <<a href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org">license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce Perens via License-discuss<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 17, 2019 9:10 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Bruce Perens <<a href="mailto:bruce@perens.com">bruce@perens.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-discuss] [License-review] Coherent Open Source - Getting underway next Friday<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>I reject that these licenses are specific to different communities at all. There are perfectly good strategic reasons why a free software person would use a BSD license, an Open Source person would use a GPL, and all of the licenses are acceptable to both camps . We are not doing restricted-availability licenses because I think they're boring and ultimately useless. We indirectly support dual-licensing if you want to do that, because it works with the GPL.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Gil, I have spent a lot of my time in bringing the free software and open source camps together, because they really are the same thing. I respectfully request that you stop attempting to divide the two communities, because it is harmful to both.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>On Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 07:24 Gil Yehuda <<a href="mailto:gyehuda@verizonmedia.com" target="_blank">gyehuda@verizonmedia.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Bruce concludes with...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>> </span><span style='color:black'>that achieves <i>most purposes of Open Source/Free Software.</i></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'>Reading this phrase a few times, something sticks out. </span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>We consistently see three camps who leverage licenses for differing reasons. I present this with no intent to judge, but only to describe as accurately as I can.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Free</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>: an ethical movement that sees proprietary software as a social wrong/evil. Licenses are designed to reduce this evil. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Open</span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>: a crowdsourcing movement that enables networked value production. Licenses allow participants to manage their intentional involvement in unrestricted code sharing, yet not erode proprietary software unintentionally. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Restricted Availability </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>: a method to expose code but restrict some usage. Licenses encourage some users to pay for usage (enabling a business venture) or block usage in restricted domains. </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I think it's better to see the <i>differences</i> between the motivations for Free Software, Open Source, and Source Available models, rather than combine them and find something that fits most of the overlap. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Licenses that enable the ethical movement don't work for many crowdsourcing participants. It forces them to share more than they want. </span>By design.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Licenses that enable the crowdsource movement do not satisfy all the goals of the ethical movement, nor do they satisfy the goals of the restricted availability movement. By design.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Licenses that enable restrictions do not satisfy the goals of either of the other two movements. Again by design.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>So if you are going to propose a reduction exercise (and if it actually takes off this time), let me suggest altering the goal from "</span><span style='color:black'>achieves <i>most purposes of Open Source/Free Software</i></span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>" to "clarify when a license meets the intent of the Free Software movement, the Open Source movement, or the Restricted Availability movement." Then include the representatives of each movement so they can help clarify where there is overlap and where not. I think this will help each movement to sit comfortably on its turf and know that others are not over-claiming.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>tl;dr: People who say "one size fits most" mean "one size fits me."</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Gil Yehuda: </span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>I help with external technology engagement<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:1.0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>From the <a href="https://developer.yahoo.com/opensource/docs/" target="_blank">Open Source Program Office</a> at Yahoo / Verizon Media<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 9:29 AM VanL <<a href="mailto:van.lindberg@gmail.com" target="_blank">van.lindberg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>[Responding on license-discuss]<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>I look forward to you endorsing the CAL, the ISC license, and MPL2 as the only licenses necessary for anyone to use.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>More seriously, is this the "only three licenses are necessary" argument, or is there a different set? If so, why? <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Van<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:29 PM Bruce Perens via License-review <<a href="mailto:license-review@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">license-review@lists.opensource.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Friday next week at Open Core Summit, I will announce COHERENT OPEN SOURCE. Let's scrap the Tower of Babel of 100+ Open Source licenses, for a minimal set, FSF/OSI approved, cross-compatible, that achieves most purposes of Open Source/Free Software.<br> -- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>Bruce Perens - Partner, <a href="http://OSS.Capital" target="_blank">OSS.Capital</a>.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>_______________________________________________<br>License-review mailing list<br><a href="mailto:License-review@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">License-review@lists.opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-review_lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-review_lists.opensource.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>_______________________________________________<br>License-discuss mailing list<br><a href="mailto:License-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">License-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'>_______________________________________________<br>License-discuss mailing list<br><a href="mailto:License-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">License-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>