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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/7/19 12:08 PM, Lawrence Rosen
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">Hi Pam,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">Pam Chestek wrote
this on 6/30/2019:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">></span> The
[Oracle v. Google] case is about whether it was lawful to copy
portions of software to enhance the ease of development of
software for an entirely different software ecosystem.<span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">What is the
relevance (or indeed, what is the definition) of "entirely
different software ecosystem"? I don't remember that being
an issue when I was in computer science graduate school. If
this case devolves into that distinction, then developers of
software would want not to cross that line when they write
new software.</span></p>
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</blockquote>
Java and Android are not designed to work together. The purpose of
the copying was not for interoperability between Java and Android.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:000001d534de$27eb3e10$77c1ba30$@rosenlaw.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">Pam quoted this </span>on
7/7/2019 <span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">from
</span><i>Oracle Am., Inc. v. Google LLC</i>, 886 F.3d 1179,
1206 (Fed. Cir. 2018):<span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">> "</span>And
Google does not rely on any interoperability arguments in this
appeal."<span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">Then what is the
relevance of "fair use"? Use for what purpose? I am curious
about Google's otherwise hidden motivations in its actions.</span></p>
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I don't understand the question. To avoid liability for having
copied portions of Java. That the portion copied wasn't substantial,
that ease of adoption by developers is a valid reason to copy
software, and so it is a fair use.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:000001d534de$27eb3e10$77c1ba30$@rosenlaw.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">In any event, the
subject of this email thread is "Copyright on APIs". Are you
saying that the Oracle v. Google case is not about APIs?<br>
</span></p>
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The case is about the copying of specifically selections of code
from Java, written in C, that the parties and the court called
"APIs." The parties could have called it "header information" rather
than "APIs" and the outcome would have been the same. However,
because they did choose to call it "APIs" the case is casting a
longer shadow than it otherwise would have. You and I both know that
the Supreme Court can decide cases broadly or narrowly. Narrowly,
the Court could hold that for <i>this</i> amount copied, for <i>this</i>
purpose, it is or is not a fair use. But any other amount, of any
other type of code, for any other purpose, would be a different
question that the Supreme Court may not answer. In which case, the
existing case law (particularly those cases for purposes of software
talking to each other) would remain undisturbed.<br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:000001d534de$27eb3e10$77c1ba30$@rosenlaw.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext">/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> License-discuss
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org"><license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org></a> <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Pamela Chestek<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 7, 2019 7:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-discuss] Copyright on APIs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On 7/7/2019 4:23
AM, Henrik Ingo wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">While I
haven't closely followed the details of Oracle vs Google,
purely from a layman and business standpoint it seems
clear that Google did create Android / Dalvik exactly to
be interoperable with Java. This means one can run the
same Java source code on either platform and the java.*
namespace offers the same packages and functionality. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">I
believe this is an important distinction that is often missed.
No, Android is not compatible with Java and was not meant to
be. "As we noted in the prior appeal, however, Google did not
seek to foster any 'inter-system consistency' between its
platform and Oracle's Java platform. Oracle, 750 F.3d at 1371.
And Google does not rely on any interoperability arguments in
this appeal." <i>Oracle Am., Inc. v. Google LLC</i>, 886 F.3d
1179, 1206 (Fed. Cir. 2018). If the Supreme Court doesn't go
beyond its remit in <i>Google v. Oracle</i>, the earlier
cases holding that this type of use is a fair use will still
be good law. <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">But
importantly, interoperability also goes the other way:
Android was compatible with the millions of developers
familiar with Java syntax and standard libraries.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">This
is Google's argument why it is a fair use. It is what the
Supreme Court's decision is likely to decide, although the
Court may go beyond that. The main decision on this type of
compatibility, <i>Lotus Dev. Corp. v. Borland Int'l, Inc.</i>,
49 F.3d 807 (1st Cir. 1995), held that the Lotus 1-2-3 menu
hierarchy was an uncopyrightable method of operation. The
Supreme Court heard the case but was equally divided, with the
result that the appeals court's decision was affirmed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">If I remember
correctly, Oracle did find early on one function
implementation that had indeed been copy pasted from
OpenJDK to Android. But this was so minor (and obvious) it
is not part of the issues decided in higher courts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Yes, there was
minor copying but it's dropped out of the case.<br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<br>
Pamela S. Chestek<br>
Chestek Legal<br>
PO Box 2492<br>
Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
919-800-8033<br>
<a href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.chesteklegal.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.chesteklegal.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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