<div dir="ltr"><div>While I haven't closely followed the details of Oracle vs Google, purely from a layman and business standpoint it seems clear that Google did create Android / Dalvik exactly to be interoperable with Java. This means one can run the same Java source code on either platform and the java.* namespace offers the same packages and functionality. But importantly, interoperability also goes the other way: Android was compatible with the millions of developers familiar with Java syntax and standard libraries.</div><div><br></div><div>If I remember correctly, Oracle did find early on one function implementation that had indeed been copy pasted from OpenJDK to Android. But this was so minor (and obvious) it is not part of the issues decided in higher courts.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div>henrik<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:43 AM Pamela Chestek <<a href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    The below is all well and good, also the law in the United States,
    and not at issue in Google v. Oracle. Google v. Oracle isn't about
    interoperability of devices or software. Android was not created to
    interface with Java or as a replacement for Java for those devices
    or programs running Java. The case is about whether it was lawful to
    copy portions of software to enhance the ease of development of
    software for an entirely different software ecosystem. I'm not
    expressing an opinion, simply pointing out that Google v. Oracle is
    a different factual situation than what everyone seems to be
    concerned about. <br>
    <br>
    Pam<br>
    <br>
    <div class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-signature">Pamela S. Chestek<br>
      Chestek Legal<br>
      PO Box 2492<br>
      Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
      919-800-8033<br>
      <a class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com" target="_blank">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
      <a class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.chesteklegal.com" target="_blank">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <div class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-cite-prefix">On 6/30/2019 5:51 PM, Lawrence Rosen
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      
      
      <div class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Thank you
            again Patrice-Emanuel, and thanks also to the EU for a much
            clearer explanation of functional software interfaces
            ("APIs") than the brief but equally relevant provision in 17
            USC 102(b). I hope the US Supreme Court is as clear in its
            decision in the Oracle v. Google case. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">OSI should
            let "strong copyleft" die peacefully among the mistaken
            theories of open source in any future licenses it approves.
            It is not a positive feature of "software freedom."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Best, /Larry</span><span style="font-size:8pt;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><b>From:</b>
          License-discuss
          <a class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank"><license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org></a> <b>On
            Behalf Of </b>Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz via License-discuss<br>
          <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2019 1:13 PM<br>
          <b>To:</b> Bruce Perens <a class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bruce@perens.com" target="_blank"><bruce@perens.com></a><br>
          <b>Cc:</b> Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz
          <a class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pe.schmitz@googlemail.com" target="_blank"><pe.schmitz@googlemail.com></a>;
          <a class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><br>
          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-discuss] [License-review]
          Copyright on APIs<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Hi Bruce,<u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">This is
              explicit law if you read Recitals 10 and 15 of <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-msohyperlink"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)"><a href="https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32009L0024&from=EN" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">Directive
                      2009/24/EC</span></a></span></span>)<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">At the
              contrary of "articles", recitals does not need to be
              transposed in national law, as requested in the directive
              process.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">However, they
              are part of EU law as well.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Recitals could
              not contradict articles (in such very hypothetical case
              they would have poor binding value).<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">But in the
              case of Directive, there is no contradiction between
              recitals and articles and - in may opinion - these
              recitals would be used by the Court of Justice of the EU
              to interpret the Directive.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">This is just
              my opinion, since the Directive was not written originally
              with a focus on open source,  but the spirit looks clear.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">The recitals
              are reproduced hereafter:<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">  (10) The
              function of a computer program is to communicate and work
              together with other components of a computer system and
              with users and, for this purpose, a logical and, where
              appropriate, physical interconnection and interaction is
              required to permit all elements of software and hardware
              to work with other software and hardware and with users in
              all the ways in which they are intended to function. The
              parts of the program which provide for such
              interconnection and interaction between elements of
              software and hardware are generally known as ‘interfaces’.
              This functional interconnection and interaction is
              generally known as ‘interoperability’; such
              interoperability can be defined as the ability to exchange
              information and mutually to use the information which has
              been exchanged.  <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">  (15) The
              unauthorised reproduction, translation, adaptation or
              transformation of the form of the code in which a copy of
              a computer program has been made available constitutes an
              infringement of the exclusive rights of the author.
              Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a
              reproduction of the code and translation of its form are
              indispensable to obtain the necessary information to
              achieve the interoperability of an independently created
              program with other programs. It has therefore to be
              considered that, in these limited circumstances only,
              performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by
              or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of
              the program is legitimate and compatible with fair
              practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the
              authorisation of the rightholder. An objective of this
              exception is to make it possible to connect all components
              of a computer system, including those of different
              manufacturers, so that they can work together. Such an
              exception to the author's exclusive rights may not be used
              in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the
              rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation
              of the program.  <u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Le dim. 30
              juin 2019 à 00:26, Bruce Perens <<a href="mailto:bruce@perens.com" target="_blank">bruce@perens.com</a>>
              a écrit :<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Is this a
                doctrine, or explicit law?<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">On Sat,
                  Jun 29, 2019, 13:59 Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz via
                  License-discuss <<a href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a>>
                  wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">As far
                    the European law could be applicable, I just confirm
                    that, for the purpose of interoperability between
                    several components and when you are the legitimate
                    owner or the legitimate licensee of these
                    components, there is a copyright exception regarding
                    their APIs. APIs escape to copyright , meaning also
                    that no license may restrict their reproduction as
                    soon the aim is to make the various components
                    working together. By the way, regarding linking,
                    this invalidates also the theory of strong copyleft,
                    in my opinion.<u></u><u></u></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">All
                      the best,<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Patrice-Emmanuel<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Le sam.
                      29 juin 2019 à 15:08, Pamela Chestek <<a href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com" target="_blank">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>>
                      a écrit :<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">On
                          6/28/19 11:40 PM, Bruce Perens via
                          License-discuss wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><i><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">Until now, the
                                  principle of copyleft has only been
                                  applied to literal code, not APIs.
                                  The <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span> submitter’s
                                  proposal is for a copyleft effect that
                                  would apply to new implementations of
                                  the API even when the underlying has
                                  been written from scratch. <a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004056.html" target="_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/<span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span>-review_lists.opensource.org/2019-April/004056.html</a>.
                                  The <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span> also
                                  makes this extension even if the legal
                                  system would not extend copyright (and
                                  therefore copyleft) so far. During
                                  the <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span>-review
                                  process some commentators objected to
                                  this extension of the copyleft
                                  principle this far. However, the <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span> review
                                  committee does not believe that there
                                  was sufficient discussion representing
                                  all points of view on the <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span>-review
                                  list and so does not reject the <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span> for
                                  this reason. The <span class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614gmail-m4035744437781305658m720975723019406264gmail-m8866525935254244560gmail-il">license</span> submitter
                                  should also be aware that the OSI was
                                  a signatory on a brief submitted to
                                  the U.S. Supreme Court advocating
                                  against the copyrightability of APIs.
                                  APIs are also known to be outside the
                                  scope of copyright under European law.
                                  We are consequently uncomfortable
                                  endorsing an application of copyright
                                  law to APIs in any form without
                                  further discussion.</span></i><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">The
                            successful application of copyright to APIs
                            would be a disaster for Open Source
                            software, in that we would no longer be able
                            to create Open versions of existing APIs or
                            languages. Consider that the GNU C compiler
                            is the bootstrap tool of Open Source. Now,
                            consider what would have happened if
                            copyright protection had prevented
                            independent implementations of the C
                            language.<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">So,
                            it's a bad idea for us to in any way accept
                            the application of API copyright today.<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">If
                            we actually <i>get </i>API copyrights
                            enforced against us broadly, we would
                            obviously have to change our strategy. But
                            until then, we shouldn't go there.<u></u><u></u></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">_______________________________________________<br>
                      License-discuss mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:License-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">License-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><br>
                      <a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><br clear="all">
                  <u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Patrice-Emmanuel
                    Schmitz<br>
                    <a href="mailto:pe.schmitz@googlemail.com" target="_blank">pe.schmitz@googlemail.com</a><br>
                    tel. + 32 478 50 40 65<u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">_______________________________________________<br>
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          </blockquote>
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          <u></u><u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in">Patrice-Emmanuel
            Schmitz<br>
            <a href="mailto:pe.schmitz@googlemail.com" target="_blank">pe.schmitz@googlemail.com</a><br>
            tel. + 32 478 50 40 65<u></u><u></u></p>
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      <pre class="gmail-m_-7483948562043125614moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><a href="mailto:henrik.ingo@avoinelama.fi" target="_blank">henrik.ingo@avoinelama.fi</a><br>+358-40-5697354        skype: henrik.ingo            irc: hingo<br><a href="http://www.openlife.cc" target="_blank">www.openlife.cc</a><br><br>My LinkedIn profile: <a href="http://fi.linkedin.com/pub/henrik-ingo/3/232/8a7" target="_blank">http://fi.linkedin.com/pub/henrik-ingo/3/232/8a7</a></div>