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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Larry Rosen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>> I believe the line is actual copying of the expressive source code.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Luis Villa responded:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>> I dislike this, but the Federal Circuit would tell you that the APIs are expressive source code. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I don't disagree; it is expressive source code, just as in Van's example a short sequence of mere notes is a musical expression. But 17 USC 102(b) excludes functional code from copyright protection "<span style='color:#333333;background:white'>regardless of the [expressive] form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." Even the Federal Circuit forgot to read that provision!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#333333;background:white'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#333333;background:white'>I believe this interpretation is consistent with what Patrice-Emmanuel described as EU software law. Their law forbids the <u>unnecessary</u> copying of the expressive source code to achieve functional interworking, not just <u>any</u> copying.* To the extent that OSI license policies need to be consistent world-wide, don't we need the Supreme Court to convince the Federal Circuit?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#333333;background:white'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#333333;background:white'>/Larry</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>* I believe that is consistent with the "abstraction-filtration-comparison" test that has long been accepted in most US and some foreign jurisdictions. T<span style='color:#222222;background:white'>he AFC test is used to determine whether elements of a computer program have been copied by comparing the <u>protectable</u> elements of two programs.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#222222;background:white'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Luis Villa <luis@lu.is> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 2, 2019 6:20 AM<br><b>To:</b> Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>; license-discuss@lists.opensource.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-discuss] Copyright on APIs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 5:34 PM Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Patrice-Emmanuel Schmitz wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>> ... this invalidates also the theory of strong copyleft, in my opinion.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bruce Perens wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>> I think we need another phrase than "strong copyleft".</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I believe that Patrice-Emmanuel is correct for U.S. copyright law also. Unlike Bruce, I don't believe that the problem is the term "strong copyleft" but rather the strong assertion of some GPL license advocates who declare that mere linking between independent programs creates a copyright ("copyleft") obligation for both programs. Linking is an example of a mere API that can be used freely without obligations. (Other examples are "class inheritance" and "copying a functional header file.") Unless that is what we mean by API, then your program will adversely affect my independent program, without legal copyright or license authority.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>That is what most of us are asking the US Supreme Court to acknowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Pam Chestek asked:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>> How do you know where the line is?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I believe the line is actual copying of the expressive source code.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I dislike this, but the Federal Circuit would tell you that the APIs are expressive source code. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Luis<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>