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    We're talking about different concepts, copyrightability versus
    term. No one would dispute that the government produces
    copyrightable subject matter. It's just a different theory for
    arguing that a US government work has lost protection outside the US
    and wondering if anyone has tried it.<br>
    <br>
    Pam<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">Pamela S. Chestek<br>
      Chestek Legal<br>
      PO Box 2492<br>
      Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
      919-800-8033<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.chesteklegal.com">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/29/2019 7:50 PM, Brendan Hickey
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJ-h4vsv42KNALdO0LmVfs6JVbmrUA9QQWiAjEn54CKLGZr_2g@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">
        <div>Typefaces are not subject to copyright protection in the
          US, while they are in several jurisdictions, including
          Ireland. Is a typeface created in the United States protected
          by copyright law in Ireland when it's copied in Dublin?</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">I'm not sure what purpose 5(2) would accomplish
          if not apply domestic Irish law in this scenario. Is there
          another interpretation I'm missing?</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Brendan</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">
          <div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 29, 2019,
              19:24 Pamela Chestek <<a
                href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com" target="_blank"
                rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> The Berne
                Convention also says in Article 7(8) that "unless the
                legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term
                [of protection] shall not exceed the term fixed in the
                country of origin of the work." <a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P127_22000"
                  rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P127_22000</a>
                The country of origin is the United States and the term,
                for government works, is zero years. So unless
                legislation in a different country provides otherwise,
                the term in a different country shall not exceed that of
                the US, that is, it shall not exceed zero.<br>
                <br>
                No one seems to argue this. Maybe the argument is that
                since it isn't protected by copyright in the US at all
                there is no term, but I haven't seen any explanation one
                way or another.<br>
                <br>
                Pam<br>
                <br>
                <div
                  class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-signature">Pamela
                  S. Chestek<br>
                  Chestek Legal<br>
                  PO Box 2492<br>
                  Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
                  919-800-8033<br>
                  <a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
                    rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
                  <a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="http://www.chesteklegal.com" rel="noreferrer
                    noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
                </div>
                <div
                  class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                  On 5/29/2019 5:18 PM, Brendan Hickey wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="auto">
                    <div>Pam,</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">I'm not sure that it would work this
                      way. Per Article 5(2) of the Berne Convention:</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><span>(2) The enjoyment and the
                        exercise of these rights shall not be subject to
                        any formality; such enjoyment and such exercise
                      </span><b>shall be independent of the existence of
                        protection in the country of origin of the work.</b><span>
                        Consequently, apart from the provisions of this
                        Convention, the extent of protection, as well as
                        the means of redress afforded to the author to
                        protect his rights, shall be governed
                        exclusively by the laws of the country where
                        protection is claimed.</span><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P109_16834"
                        rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P109_16834</a></div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">Brendan</div>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
                        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May
                          29, 2019, 16:45 Pamela Chestek <<a
                            href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
                            rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>>
                          wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                            Wouldn't the government's copyright interest
                            outside of the US be limited by the Rule of
                            the Shorter Term under the Berne Convention?
                            And so where the term in the US is "zero,"
                            wouldn't it be zero in those countries that
                            observe the Rule of the Shorter Term?<br>
                            <br>
                            Pam<br>
                            <br>
                            <div
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-signature">Pamela
                              S. Chestek<br>
                              Chestek Legal<br>
                              PO Box 2492<br>
                              Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
                              919-800-8033<br>
                              <a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
                                rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
                                noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
                              <a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                href="http://www.chesteklegal.com"
                                rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
                                noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            <div
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-cite-prefix">On
                              5/28/2019 9:34 PM, John Cowan wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                </div>
                                <br>
                                <div class="gmail_quote">
                                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
                                    Tue, May 28, 2019 at 5:33 PM
                                    Christopher Sean Morrison via
                                    License-discuss <<a
                                      href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org"
                                      rel="noreferrer noreferrer
                                      noreferrer noreferrer"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a>>
                                    wrote:<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>Yes!  Even to say it’s in
                                          the public domain is
                                          misleading.  It’s not a USC
                                          term.</div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>It's true that "public domain" is
                                    not *defined* in 17 U.S.C., but it
                                    is *used* there seven times.  So
                                    turning to a dictionary, we find
                                    this in the American Heritage
                                    Dictionary, 5th edition: "The
                                    condition of not being protected by
                                    a patent or copyright and therefore
                                    being available to the public for
                                    use without charge", and this in
                                    Merriam Webster Online: "[T]he realm
                                    embracing property rights that
                                    belong to the community at large,
                                    are unprotected by copyright or
                                    patent, and are subject to
                                    appropriation by anyone[.]"  So the
                                    term is well-defined.</div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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                                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>Saying something from the
                                        Gov’t is “public domain”
                                        typically just means it went
                                        through a public release process
                                        and there's no intention to
                                        assert rights.</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>No, it means that there is no
                                    copyright owner.  17 U.S.C.  §105
                                    says: "Copyright protection under
                                    this title is not available for any
                                    work of the United States
                                    Government, but the United States
                                    Government is not precluded from
                                    receiving and holding copyrights
                                    transferred to it by assignment,
                                    bequest, or otherwise."  The term
                                    “work of the United States
                                    Government” is defined as "[a] work
                                    prepared by an officer or employee
                                    of the United States Government as
                                    part of that person’s official
                                    duties"</div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>While works of Gov’t
                                        employees typically don't have
                                        copyright protection under Title
                                        17 and could easily be released
                                        "into the public domain”,  </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>They *are* in the public domain
                                    (unless they were not part of the
                                    author's official duties).</div>
                                  <div> </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>that doesn’t mean they have
                                        to release it, can release it,</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>If by "release" you mean
                                    "publish", you are of course right. 
                                     But if by "release" you mean "place
                                    in the public domain", you are
                                    wrong, as shown above.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div>
                                      <div> or that there aren’t other
                                        mechanisms for releasing it NOT
                                        “into the public domain.”</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>There are no such mechanisms.  A
                                    copyrighted work can have its
                                    copyright transferred, but a work
                                    that is not in copyright (whether
                                    because the copyright has been
                                    expired or forfeited, or was
                                    expressly waived by the owner, or
                                    never existed in the first place)
                                    cannot be removed from the public
                                    domain except by Act of Congress. 
                                    This has happened several times in
                                    the past, notably 1893 (restoring
                                    copyright forfeited for lack of
                                    certain formalities if
                                    reregistered), 1919, 1941 (for the
                                    benefit of foreign authors whose
                                    copyrights expired during the war,
                                    when they could not renew them),
                                    1976 (extension to life+50), and
                                    1989 (extension to life+70), plus a
                                    number of private bills in the 19C
                                    for the benefit of specific authors.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                    style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>Gov’t regularly distributes
                                        software that otherwise has *no*
                                        Title 17 protections to foreign
                                        and domestic recipients, under
                                        contractual terms.</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>So they may, but if the
                                    recipients transfer the software to
                                    third parties, the recipients are in
                                    breach but the third parties are
                                    not, for lack of privity and because
                                    there is no in rem right in the
                                    nature of copyright.  Much the same
                                    is true of classified materials (as
                                    opposed to the U.K. where receiving
                                    and further disseminating such
                                    materials is separately
                                    criminalized.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
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</pre>
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