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We're talking about different concepts, copyrightability versus
term. No one would dispute that the government produces
copyrightable subject matter. It's just a different theory for
arguing that a US government work has lost protection outside the US
and wondering if anyone has tried it.<br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">Pamela S. Chestek<br>
Chestek Legal<br>
PO Box 2492<br>
Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
919-800-8033<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.chesteklegal.com">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/29/2019 7:50 PM, Brendan Hickey
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJ-h4vsv42KNALdO0LmVfs6JVbmrUA9QQWiAjEn54CKLGZr_2g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Typefaces are not subject to copyright protection in the
US, while they are in several jurisdictions, including
Ireland. Is a typeface created in the United States protected
by copyright law in Ireland when it's copied in Dublin?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm not sure what purpose 5(2) would accomplish
if not apply domestic Irish law in this scenario. Is there
another interpretation I'm missing?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Brendan</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 29, 2019,
19:24 Pamela Chestek <<a
href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> The Berne
Convention also says in Article 7(8) that "unless the
legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term
[of protection] shall not exceed the term fixed in the
country of origin of the work." <a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P127_22000"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P127_22000</a>
The country of origin is the United States and the term,
for government works, is zero years. So unless
legislation in a different country provides otherwise,
the term in a different country shall not exceed that of
the US, that is, it shall not exceed zero.<br>
<br>
No one seems to argue this. Maybe the argument is that
since it isn't protected by copyright in the US at all
there is no term, but I haven't seen any explanation one
way or another.<br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<br>
<div
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-signature">Pamela
S. Chestek<br>
Chestek Legal<br>
PO Box 2492<br>
Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
919-800-8033<br>
<a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.chesteklegal.com" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084moz-cite-prefix"><br>
On 5/29/2019 5:18 PM, Brendan Hickey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Pam,</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm not sure that it would work this
way. Per Article 5(2) of the Berne Convention:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span>(2) The enjoyment and the
exercise of these rights shall not be subject to
any formality; such enjoyment and such exercise
</span><b>shall be independent of the existence of
protection in the country of origin of the work.</b><span>
Consequently, apart from the provisions of this
Convention, the extent of protection, as well as
the means of redress afforded to the author to
protect his rights, shall be governed
exclusively by the laws of the country where
protection is claimed.</span><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><a
href="https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P109_16834"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/text.jsp?file_id=283698#P109_16834</a></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Brendan</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May
29, 2019, 16:45 Pamela Chestek <<a
href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Wouldn't the government's copyright interest
outside of the US be limited by the Rule of
the Shorter Term under the Berne Convention?
And so where the term in the US is "zero,"
wouldn't it be zero in those countries that
observe the Rule of the Shorter Term?<br>
<br>
Pam<br>
<br>
<div
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-signature">Pamela
S. Chestek<br>
Chestek Legal<br>
PO Box 2492<br>
Raleigh, NC 27602<br>
919-800-8033<br>
<a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:pamela@chesteklegal.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pamela@chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<a
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.chesteklegal.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.chesteklegal.com</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-7014961507874292072m_-9193589180373578084m_8799505073407616026m_2098390250474098759moz-cite-prefix">On
5/28/2019 9:34 PM, John Cowan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Tue, May 28, 2019 at 5:33 PM
Christopher Sean Morrison via
License-discuss <<a
href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>Yes! Even to say it’s in
the public domain is
misleading. It’s not a USC
term.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's true that "public domain" is
not *defined* in 17 U.S.C., but it
is *used* there seven times. So
turning to a dictionary, we find
this in the American Heritage
Dictionary, 5th edition: "The
condition of not being protected by
a patent or copyright and therefore
being available to the public for
use without charge", and this in
Merriam Webster Online: "[T]he realm
embracing property rights that
belong to the community at large,
are unprotected by copyright or
patent, and are subject to
appropriation by anyone[.]" So the
term is well-defined.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Saying something from the
Gov’t is “public domain”
typically just means it went
through a public release process
and there's no intention to
assert rights.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No, it means that there is no
copyright owner. 17 U.S.C. §105
says: "Copyright protection under
this title is not available for any
work of the United States
Government, but the United States
Government is not precluded from
receiving and holding copyrights
transferred to it by assignment,
bequest, or otherwise." The term
“work of the United States
Government” is defined as "[a] work
prepared by an officer or employee
of the United States Government as
part of that person’s official
duties"</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>While works of Gov’t
employees typically don't have
copyright protection under Title
17 and could easily be released
"into the public domain”, </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They *are* in the public domain
(unless they were not part of the
author's official duties).</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>that doesn’t mean they have
to release it, can release it,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If by "release" you mean
"publish", you are of course right.
But if by "release" you mean "place
in the public domain", you are
wrong, as shown above.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div> or that there aren’t other
mechanisms for releasing it NOT
“into the public domain.”</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are no such mechanisms. A
copyrighted work can have its
copyright transferred, but a work
that is not in copyright (whether
because the copyright has been
expired or forfeited, or was
expressly waived by the owner, or
never existed in the first place)
cannot be removed from the public
domain except by Act of Congress.
This has happened several times in
the past, notably 1893 (restoring
copyright forfeited for lack of
certain formalities if
reregistered), 1919, 1941 (for the
benefit of foreign authors whose
copyrights expired during the war,
when they could not renew them),
1976 (extension to life+50), and
1989 (extension to life+70), plus a
number of private bills in the 19C
for the benefit of specific authors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Gov’t regularly distributes
software that otherwise has *no*
Title 17 protections to foreign
and domestic recipients, under
contractual terms.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So they may, but if the
recipients transfer the software to
third parties, the recipients are in
breach but the third parties are
not, for lack of privity and because
there is no in rem right in the
nature of copyright. Much the same
is true of classified materials (as
opposed to the U.K. where receiving
and further disseminating such
materials is separately
criminalized.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
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