<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>I believe the underlying problem is that the OSI as a community has been largely ineffective at reconciling patent right concerns with respect to the OSD.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">On the one side, you have people that seem to think of patents as this extrinsic issue, that a license (only) pertains to copyright concerns on the source code. On another side, you have people that see them as one and the same as they are to a user wanting to use/incorporate/derive that source code. I believe lawyers (patent lawyers in particular) tend to align with the prior as that’s how they’re handled in court while users and laymen have the counter perspective.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If a license explicitly excludes patent rights, then that license arguably violates OSD #7 if and only if an applicable patent exists. However, it clearly *complies* when a patent doesn’t exist. This results in a general perception that the license is Open Source as most software is not patent-protected. Is it the license's fault that a patent exists? It can be argued both ways when it explicitly excludes necessary rights that do cover the code.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Until this community reconciles where the OSI (and by extension the OSD) stands with respect to patents and patent rights, specific cases like CC0 are potentially endless debates. Until a court finds a permissive license as NOT implying a patent grant, one can reasonably argue that explicit exclusion of rights would set a precedent too, so it’s worth careful consideration.</div><div class=""><div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div>Cheers!</div><div>Sean</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 22, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Tzeng, Nigel H. <<a href="mailto:Nigel.Tzeng@jhuapl.edu" class="">Nigel.Tzeng@jhuapl.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Let's clarify the history on CC0. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Objection to CC0 was primarily you and Bruce which made it DOA regardless of the opinions of the rest of the list. There was no "quickly growing consensus" when they pulled the plug.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Many, if not the majority, of folks on L-R thought this should have been an easy open and shut approval:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001429.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001429.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001430.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001430.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001432.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001432.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001434.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001434.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001443.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001443.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001441.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001441.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">And I got tired of reading that thread again….folks that care to can do so to see that the list was in favor of approval.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">What was happening behind the scenes on the OSI board I cannot say but to say that “<i class="">the Committee</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>felt that approving such a license would set a dangerous precedent” is a significant overstatement. <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The fact remains that CC0 is a widely used Open Source license approved by CC, FSF and the USG. OSI approval, or lack thereof, has had minimal impact on its use. John Cowan succinctly made this point in 2012:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">"I would, and gladly. But it wouldn't be CC0. People are *already* publishing software under CC0, and now they can't even say it's Open Source. That *sucks*."<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001570.html" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-review_lists.opensource.org/2012-February/001570.html</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">ObDis: Speaking for myself and not APL.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 5/21/19, 12:56 PM, "License-discuss on behalf of Richard Fontana" <<a href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">license-discuss-bounces@lists.opensource.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rfontana@redhat.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">rfontana@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 12:30 PM Nicholas Matthew Neft Weinstock<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <<a href="mailto:nweinsto@qti.qualcomm.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">nweinsto@qti.qualcomm.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> [...]<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> > OSI does not do so with regards to prospective licenses. It considers other factors besides the published definition.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> ><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> [...]<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> > OSI’s License Review committee was unable to reach consensus on approving CC0,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> The wording in the FAQ you referenced<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> (<a href="https://opensource.org/faq#cc-zero" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://opensource.org/faq#cc-zero</a>) is slightly but meaningfully<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> different: "the License Review Committee was unable to reach consensus<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> that it should be approved". Based on what I recall of the discussion,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> that seems to be a polite way of saying that there was a quickly<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> growing consensus that it should be rejected.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> > but not because it failed any element of the OSD (<a href="https://opensource.org/faq#cc-zero" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://opensource.org/faq#cc-zero</a>).<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> The sentence "While many open source licenses simply do not mention<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> patents, it is exceedingly rare for open source licenses to explicitly<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> disclaim any conveyance of patent rights, and the Committee felt that<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> approving such a license would set a dangerous precedent, and possibly<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> even weaken patent infringement defenses available to users of<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> software released under CC0." was written by an OSI board member<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> several years ago and may not fully reflect the current view of the<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> OSI board; I recommend that they review this FAQ.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> I am not sure if you are doing this intentionally (I notice you are<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> writing from a Qualcomm address) but there's nothing in that FAQ that<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> suggests that CC0, in the views of the participants in that l-r<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> discussion, did *not* think it failed elements of the OSD. Indeed my<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> recollection is that some participants in that discussion specifically<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> pointed to OSD 7 as a basis for nonconformance of CC0 with the OSD.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> (I don't necessarily disagree with the main point you were making.)<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> Richard<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> _______________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> License-discuss mailing list<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:License-discuss@lists.opensource.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">License-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); 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