<div dir="ltr">I am the standards chair of OSI. We are indeed concerned with patents in standards, and we spend a lot of time and money on the issue. We assert that the OSD terms apply to patents as well as copyright.<div><br></div><div> Thanks</div><div><br></div><div> Bruce</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 1:33 PM Christopher Sean Morrison <<a href="mailto:brlcad@mac.com">brlcad@mac.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><br></div>If a piece of software is covered by a patent that is not granted to recipients or is otherwise not royalty-free for, then they will be unable to use or distribute the code. To me, that is a direct failure of the OSD, regardless of it being due to copyright law, patent law, or any other IP consideration. They are not separable issues to the consumer.<div><br></div><div>I think the OSD — whether condensed to 4 or 5 concepts, the current 10 criteria, or simply the symbolic notion — applies generally and is not constrained to just copyright or regulation or other law. The definition is in a broader community perspective, not a lawyer’s desired method of litigation or protection, that the code is truly “open” for myriad purposes. If the code is covered by a royalty-enforced patent, then I can’t use it, plain and simple. It’s not open source in my book.</div><div><br></div><div>Sean</div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class="m_3342457003192328356WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Nicholas Weinstein wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>But with patents only the first inventor gets patent protection, so there is always a possibility that someone who has never contributed to the project has a valid patent covering some of the functionality (presuming patents cover software at all, which is a separate discussion).<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">We should separate copyrights from patents – at least legally, although they are referenced in the same provision of the U.S. Constitution. You refer more generally to intellectual property, and that's probably too BIG a topic for just this list.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">We should trust W3C to define Royalty-Free Patents and let OSI define Open Source Copyrights with the OSD. When you put these definitions both together, the software will be about as free as possible under existing law.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>I would be happy to suggest tweaking the wording to address my two points if appropriate, but I don’t want to overstep if that’s not the intention.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">That is my hope. It would not be an overstep!!!!<span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">/Larry<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">/Larry<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Lawrence Rosen<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:8pt">Rosenlaw (</span><a href="http://www.rosenlaw.com/" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8pt">www.rosenlaw.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8pt">)<span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:8pt">LinkedIn: LawrenceRosen<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:8pt">3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:8pt">Cell: 707-478-8932<span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:8pt">This email is licensed under<span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/" style="color:rgb(149,79,114);text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:8pt">CC-BY-4.0</span></a><span style="font-size:8pt">. Please copy freely.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><span id="m_3342457003192328356cid:image001.png@01D4781D.648576C0"><image001.png></span></span><span style="font-size:8pt"><u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nicholas Matthew Neft Weinstock <<a href="mailto:nweinsto@qti.qualcomm.com" target="_blank">nweinsto@qti.qualcomm.com</a>><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, November 9, 2018 10:22 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:license-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">license-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a>; <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE: [License-discuss] Open source software licenses and the OSD<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Lawrence Rosen wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><snip><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Instead, as long as the five basic freedoms on the cover of my book are protected, software will be open source enough for me. That is why I have proposed this common definition:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">“Open source software” means software actually distributed to the public under software licenses that provide that every licensee is free to make copies of the software or derivative works thereof, to distribute them without payment of royalties or other consideration, and to access and use the complete source code of the software.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=-=-=<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Larry, thank you for sending out a summary of the history of the OSI definition along with this concatenated statement.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I’m not sure if your intention is to start a conversation about a new, more concise definition, or simply to state your perspective? <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I believe you’re referring to your<span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><u>Open Source Licensing</u><span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span>book, which lists the following:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>Use open source software for any purpose<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>Make and distribute copies<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>Create and distribute derivative works<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>Access and use the source code<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman""> <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>Combine open source and other software<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I’m clearly seeing the first four in your proposed definition, and it seems reasonable to infer the fifth between making derivative works and access/use the source code.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">However, I could see some community confusion regarding a new phrase you’re adding that isn’t reflected in the five basic freedoms from your book cover: “without payment of royalties or other consideration.”<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">First, while it’s not required, GPLv2 section 1 does allow a distributor to “…charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy…” I recognize there’s a difference between paying to receive the software and paying a royalty when you distribute the software, but I have worked with plenty of Engineers who would not understand that distinction and might be confused whether GPLv2 fits the new definition.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Second, it’s clear to me that you’re only referring to Copyrights, based on your reference to the relevant Copyright rights (copy, create derivative works, distribute). But some people might be confused and think you’re referring to royalties for any type of IP, including Patents or Trademarks. <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">With copyright, independent creation is separately protectable. So every author can contribute their code subject to a qualifying license, and the project can accurately make a statement that the full project is unencumbered by any copyright royalties. <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">But with patents only the first inventor gets patent protection, so there is always a possibility that someone who has never contributed to the project has a valid patent covering some of the functionality (presuming patents cover software at all, which is a separate discussion).<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">And with trademarks, it would be easy for an unaware contributor to include a picture of Mickey Mouse as sample media, or an audio file of the Microsoft Windows power-on sound, or even a trademarked phrase such as “Let’s get ready to rumble!” that a maintainer might not recognize. <span class="m_3342457003192328356Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As you can see, it doesn’t seem like any responsible project could make a conclusive statement that it is unencumbered by any patent or trademark royalties without significant search efforts, which would be unreasonable to expect of most maintainers.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, there are some licenses currently recognized as Open Source that have express patent disclaimers (such as the Creative Commons v4.0 series of licenses) or express trademark disclaimers (including your own Academic Free License and Open Software License, as well as other common licenses including CDDL, CPAL, GPLv3 (permitted additional limitation, section 7), MPL, and Ms-PL/Ms-LPL/Ms-RL). It would seem that all of these would be outside your definition if this new phrase were to include all type of IP Royalties.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I would be happy to suggest tweaking the wording to address my two points if appropriate, but I don’t want to overstep if that’s not the intention.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank you,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Nicholas Weinstock<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">License-discuss mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important"><a href="mailto:License-discuss@lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">License-discuss@lists.opensource.org</a></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important"><a href="http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org" target="_blank">http://lists.opensource.org/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss_lists.opensource.org</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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