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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Cam Karan asked:<o:p></o:p></span></a></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>> </span>If you have case law where the USG won a lawsuit over material licensed under one of the copyright-based OSI licenses where there was no claim of copyright, please provide it. </span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>A copyright lawsuit requires copyright, so that's impossible. <o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>A contract lawsuit requires damages and is usually fought in state (or small claims?) court without even being published. Ask your own attorneys if they have ever won a contract lawsuit in a state or federal court without proof of damages because the USG or anyone else merely distributed harmless public domain software.<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Lawrence Rosen<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Rosenlaw (</span></span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span><a href="http://www.rosenlaw.com/"><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt'>www.rosenlaw.com</span></span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span></a><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>) <o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482<o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Cell: 707-478-8932 <o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>This email is licensed under </span></span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/"><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt'>CC-BY-4.0</span></span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span></a><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>. Please copy freely.</span></span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <img border=0 width=89 height=31 style='width:.9236in;height:.3263in' id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.png@01D1F944.5DB01C10" alt="https://licensebuttons.net/l/by/4.0/88x31.png"></span></span><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></span></p><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Lawrence Rosen [mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 18, 2016 11:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> license-discuss@opensource.org<br><b>Cc:</b> Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL) 0.4.0<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'>Cem Karan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:1.0in'>> The only reason that the ARL OSL was proposed AT ALL is because there is a strong concern that since USG code doesn't have copyright [1], any license that relies exclusively on copyright may be invalidated by the courts [2].<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>We understand that strong concern. Most of us don't share it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Many of us have noted that NO FOSS LICENSE relies exclusively on copyright law. That argument was made here on this list years ago. No court anywhere has ever decided a FOSS case without also using CONTRACT interpretation rules.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>We also noted that MOST FOSS SOFTWARE already contains public domain components. Perhaps ALL FOSS SOFTWARE, considering that engineers often claim copyright on more than they deserve.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Our U.S. Army software is no different: Portions copyright; portions not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>We attorneys here will try to convince your attorneys of that if they consent to speak to us. You engineers should not volunteer to be translators in that discussion, but listen in. And we attorneys should speak candidly about copyright and contract law. Several of us are specialists, and several here have already volunteered to have that legal chat with your counsel.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Lawrence Rosen<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Rosenlaw (<a href="http://www.rosenlaw.com">www.rosenlaw.com</a>) <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Cell: 707-478-8932 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Karan, Cem F CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL (US) [<a href="mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil">mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil</a>] <br>Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 10:52 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org">license-discuss@opensource.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL) 0.4.0<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>The only reason that the ARL OSL was proposed AT ALL is because there is a strong concern that since USG code doesn't have copyright [1], any license that relies exclusively on copyright may be invalidated by the courts [2]. If the USG had copyright, then I could stop pushing the ARL OSL entirely as we could use any of the OSI-supplied licenses.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>So to be 100% clear, we don't know if any copyright-based license will stand up in court for works that don't have copyright attached. The only reason that the ARL OSL was proposed was to deal with that particular situation. If you have case law where the USG won a lawsuit over material licensed under one of the copyright-based OSI licenses where there was no claim of copyright, please provide it. I can pass that to the ARL Legal team who can then review it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Cem Karan<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>[1] I'm making the usual assumption that this was code created by USG employees in the course of their duties; copyright can be assigned to the USG where and when it exists, but I'm ignoring that for right now.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>[2] My expectation is that it would be invalidated for the USG-supplied portion, but not for any portion that had copyright attached. Note that this is just my opinion, and I have nothing to back it up. IANAL.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> From: License-discuss [<a href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org"><span style='color:black;text-decoration:none'>mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org</span></a>] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> On Behalf Of Smith, McCoy<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 2:54 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> To: <a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org"><span style='color:black;text-decoration:none'>license-discuss@opensource.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> 0.4.0<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Or to put a finer point on it, the other issues you identify appear to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> be ones that are explicitly addressed in many already-approved OSI <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> licenses, including Apache 2.0, the one you are modeling your license upon.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> I hope you're getting a sense that there are several lawyers on this <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> mailing list -- lawyers who have years of experience looking at, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> debating, and giving advice on the issues you identify in this <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> submission -- who think that your proposed license is a variant of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Apache 2.0 designed to solve a "problem" for USG users with Apache 2.0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> that we are skeptical even exists. Perhaps the ARL lawyers can <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> clarify what the problem is, and that we are missing something. But I <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> think at least I am having a hard time understanding how this license <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> does anything that Apache 2.0 doesn't.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> From: License-discuss<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> [Caution-mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org] On Behalf Of <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Richard Fontana<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 11:33 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> To: <a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org"><span style='color:black;text-decoration:none'>license-discuss@opensource.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> 0.4.0<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 06:17:07PM +0000, Karan, Cem F CIV USARMY <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> RDECOM ARL<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> (US) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> ><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> > Once again, liability isn't the only issue; there are also copyright <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> > issues (for contributors), and IP issues. If we could solve the <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> > problem via a simple disclaimer of liability, we would. We need to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> > handle ALL the issues.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> Even if you were correct in the assertions you've made about ARL code, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>> why is a new license needed for contributors other than ARL?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>