<div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks for summarizing; I think you and I agree :-)<br><br></div><div>I cannot envision any sort of contract which is designed to allow access to the code, with modification, distribution, derivation, and other permissions, but which also allows the USG to enforce any sort of restrictions on those activities (given the lack of copyright). I'm not a lawyer, but having been involved on both sides of dozens of open source licenses, I know what I (and my employer) would be able to understand and accept, and as a result I don't see how such a contract would do anything but interfere with adoption of the software covered by it.<br><br></div><div>If, as has been mentioned, there are patents and/or trademarks involved, then a contract which clearly addresses those aspects, and only those aspects, would make much more sense.<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 9:29 AM, Maarten Zeinstra <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mz@kl.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Kevin and Cem,<div><br></div><div>I think the confusion here is indeed about ownership vs, access, As I understand Cem’s project he wants to provide access to third parties to its code and wants to ‘license’ it. However open source license (afaik) deal with the ownership part of the code and does not deal in restricting access to the code.</div><div><br></div><div>I think Cem is indeed on the right track with #3 in his reply. You cannot rely on copyright, you could only focus on any patent aspects of open source license. Coming from the Creative Commons world, I do not know about patents in Open Source licenses.</div><div><br></div><div> I also think that is near impossible to enforce access limiting contracts in a one-to-all way. I wrote an opinion about a related situation about the New York Metropolitan Museum that provided free downloads of its public domain images but restricted those downloads to non-commercial use: <a href="https://www.kl.nl/en/opinion/why-the-met-does-not-open-any-real-doors/" target="_blank">https://www.kl.nl/en/<wbr>opinion/why-the-met-does-not-<wbr>open-any-real-doors/</a> (tl;dr: you cannot enforce general rules about free downloads, and it is a bad practise to try to do so).</div><div><br></div><div>the USG cannot enforce open source license as they have no underlying copyright, any contract drafted that is similar to an open source license without the licensing of copyright and limiting the access or reuse of the work should not be considered a open source license and fall into the category of bad practise. </div><div><br></div><div>Re: Berne Convention. Sure Page Miller is right. But try and proof me wrong :) but no country in the world has a paragraph in their national copyright act that provides the USG with copyright where they do not hold that nationally. They would rely on the absence of formalities but that means you do need in a rights holder in the country of origine, which does not exist.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Maarten</div><div><br></div><div>
<div>--<div>Kennisland | <a href="http://www.kl.nl" style="color:purple" target="_blank">www.kl.nl</a> | t +31205756720 | m +31643053919 | @mzeinstra</div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 03 Aug 2016, at 15:17, Karan, Cem F CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL (US) <<a href="mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil" target="_blank">cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div>I just got off the phone with Page Miller in the US Copyright office (<a href="http://www.copyright.gov/" target="_blank">http://www.copyright.gov/</a>). She is the person at the USG that specializes in these types of questions. She told me that the Berne convention does not change laws in individual countries, it just removes certain formalities. As such, if the foreign government permits the USG to hold copyright in the foreign country, then the USG is permitted to do so. You can contact the copyright office at <a href="mailto:copyinfo@loc.gov" target="_blank">copyinfo@loc.gov</a>. If you put in a line like 'Attention: Page Miller', it will get routed to her to answer.<br><br>So, the very latest position of the USG is that it can apply for copyright protections for USG-produced works that have no copyright within the US.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Cem Karan<br><br><blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br>From: License-discuss [<a href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org" target="_blank">mailto:license-discuss-<wbr>bounces@opensource.org</a>] On Behalf Of Maarten Zeinstra<br>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 4:36 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org" target="_blank">license-discuss@opensource.org</a><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: US Army Research Laboratory Open Source License proposal<br><br>All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links<br>contained within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser.<br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>__<br><br><br><br>I did some further investigating into this. The sources that I and John refer to are from 1976, which is pre-Berne (US in force: March 1,<br>1989). So this would further cast doubts on the claims of copyright abroad of the US government.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Maarten<br><br><br><br>--<br>Kennisland | <a href="http://caution-www.kl.nl" target="_blank">Caution-www.kl.nl</a> < <a>Caution-http://www.kl.nl</a> > | t +31205756720 | m +31643053919 | @mzeinstra<br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On 01 Aug 2016, at 10:20, Maarten Zeinstra <<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mz@kl.nl</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mailto:mz@kl.nl</a> > > wrote:<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Hi Cem,<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I believe this was already answered John Cowan, I was proven wrong. US does assert copyright for government works in other<br>jurisdictions. Wikipedia provides these sources:<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>“The prohibition on copyright protection for United States Government works is not intended to have any effect on protection of<br>these works abroad. Works of the governments of most other countries are copyrighted. There are no valid policy reasons for denying<br>such protection to United States Government works in foreign countries, or for precluding the Government from making licenses for the<br>use of its works abroad.” - House Report No. 94-1476<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>and<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>“3.1.7 Does the Government have copyright protection in U.S. Government works in other countries?<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Yes, the copyright exclusion for works of the U.S. Government is not intended to have any impact on protection of these works<br>abroad (S. REP. NO. 473, 94th Cong., 2d Sess. 56 (1976)). Therefore, the U.S. Government may obtain protection in other countries<br>depending on the treatment of government works by the national copyright law of the particular country. Copyright is sometimes<br>asserted by U.S. Government agencies outside the United States.” <a>Caution-http://www.cendi.gov/<wbr>publications/04-8copyright.<wbr>html#317</a> <<br><a>Caution-http://www.cendi.gov/<wbr>publications/04-8copyright.<wbr>html#317</a> ><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>However I am not sure how this would work with the Berne Convention, especially article 7(8) which states: ‘[..] the term shall be<br>governed by the legislation of the country where protection is claimed; however, unless the legislation of that country otherwise provides,<br>the term shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the work.’ If the U.S. term of protection is 0 years, than other countries<br>would also apply 0 years.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>@John, @Cem: do you have some case law about this? I would like to verify this with my academic network in the U.S. If not, any<br>license you want to apply on this material is immediately void (which is only a theoretical problem imo).<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Regards,<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Maarten<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>--<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Kennisland | <a href="http://caution-www.kl.nl" target="_blank">Caution-www.kl.nl</a> < <a>Caution-http://www.kl.nl/</a> > | t +31205756720 | m +31643053919 | @mzeinstra<br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On 29 Jul 2016, at 19:37, Karan, Cem F CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL (US) <<a href="mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil" target="_blank">cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil</a> < Caution-<br><a href="mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil" target="_blank">mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.<wbr>mil</a> > > wrote:<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I'm sorry for getting back late to this, the lawyer I'm working with was called away for a bit and couldn't reply.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I asked specifically about this case; in our lawyer's opinion, the US Government does have copyright in foreign (to the US)<br>countries. He says that there is case law where the US has asserted this, but he is checking to see if he can find case law regarding this to<br>definitively answer the question.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thanks,<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Cem Karan<br><br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>-----Original Message-----<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>From: License-discuss [Caution-<a href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org" target="_blank">mailto:license-<wbr>discuss-bounces@opensource.org</a> < Caution-mailto:<a href="mailto:license-discuss-" target="_blank">license-<wbr>discuss-</a><br><a href="mailto:bounces@opensource.org" target="_blank">bounces@opensource.org</a> > ] On Behalf Of Maarten Zeinstra<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:49 AM<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>To: <a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org" target="_blank">license-discuss@opensource.org</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org" target="_blank">mailto:license-<wbr>discuss@opensource.org</a> ><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Cc: <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">mailto:lrosen@<wbr>rosenlaw.com</a> ><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [License-discuss] US Army Research Laboratory Open Source License proposal<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the identity of the sender, and confirm the<br>authenticity of all links<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>contained within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser.<br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>______________________________<wbr>__<br><br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Hi,<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Yes I am suggesting that if the country of origin of the work does not assign copyright to the work then no<br>copyright is assigned world-<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>wide. My reasoning is that there is no entity to assign that copyright to.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>An example in a different field might support my argument.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>In the Netherlands we automatically assign (not transfer, which is important here) any IP rights of the employee<br>to the employer if works<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>are created within the duties of the employee. That means that the employer is the rights holder. This rights<br>holder is consequently also<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>recognised as the rights holder in other jurisdictions. Who might, given a similar situation in their own<br>jurisdiction, normally assign the<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>right to the employee.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Now if there is no rights holder to begin with (the U.S. waives it rights on government produced works as I<br>understand, the Netherlands<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>government does the same), then no foreign rights can be assigned as well. Hence the work must be in the public<br>domain world wide.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I have more experience with Creative Commons-licenses than with Open Source license, but in CC licenses the<br>license exists for the<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>duration of the right. I assume all Open Source licenses are basically the same in this regard. In that sense it does<br>not matter which license<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>is applied as the license is immediately void, since there is no underlying right to license.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Finally, in the past I have advised the dutch government to adopt CC0 to make the public domain status of their<br>works clear. They have<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>adopted this since ~2011 on their main site: <a>Caution-Caution-https://www.<wbr>government.nl/copyright</a> < caution-<br><a>Caution-https://www.<wbr>government.nl/copyright</a> > < Caution-<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><a>Caution-https://www.<wbr>government.nl/copyright</a> < <a>Caution-https://www.<wbr>government.nl/copyright</a> > > (english<br>version). I advise the US army does something similar as well.<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Regards,<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Maarten Zeinstra<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>--<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Kennisland | <a href="http://caution-caution-www.kl.nl" target="_blank">Caution-Caution-www.kl.nl</a> < <a>Caution-http://caution-<wbr>Caution-www.kl.nl/</a> > < Caution-Caution-<br><a href="http://www.kl.nl" target="_blank">http://www.kl.nl</a> < <a>caution-Caution-http://www.kl.<wbr>nl</a> > > | t +31205756720 | m +31643053919 | @mzeinstra<br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On 24 Jul 2016, at 08:26, Philippe Ombredanne <<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">pombredanne@nexb.com</a> < Caution-<br><a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com</a> > < Caution-Caution-<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">mailto:<wbr>pombredanne@nexb.com</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">mailto:pombredanne@<wbr>nexb.com</a> > > ><br>wrote:<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 11:23 PM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">mailto:lrosen@<wbr>rosenlaw.com</a><br><blockquote type="cite"> < Caution-Caution-<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">mailto:lrosen@<wbr>rosenlaw.com</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">mailto:lrosen@<wbr>rosenlaw.com</a> > > > wrote:<br></blockquote><br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>It is true that this public domain result doesn't apply outside the U.S. But<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>if you apply a valid open source license to it – such as Apache 2.0 – that<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>should be good enough for everyone who doesn't live in the U.S. and<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>irrelevant for us here.<br><br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Larry, are you suggesting that Cem considers using some statement more<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>or less like this, rather than a new license?<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> This U.S. Federal Government work is not copyrighted and dedicated<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> to the public domain in the USA. Alternatively, the Apache-2.0<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>license applies<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> outside of the USA ?<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Maarten Zeinstra <<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mz@kl.nl</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mailto:mz@kl.nl</a> > < Caution-Caution-<br><a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mailto:mz@kl.nl</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" target="_blank">mailto:mz@kl.nl</a> > > > wrote:<br><br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Is that the correct interpretation of the Berne convention? The convention<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>assigns copyright to foreigners of a signatory state with at least as strong<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>protection as own nationals. Since US government does not attract copyright<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I am unsure if they can attract copyright in other jurisdictions.<br><br><br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Maarten, are you suggesting then that the lack of copyright for a U.S. Federal<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Government work would just then apply elsewhere too and that using an<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>alternative Apache license would not even be needed?<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>--<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Cordially<br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Philippe Ombredanne<br><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>+1 650 799 0949 | <a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">pombredanne@nexB.com</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">mailto:pombredanne@<wbr>nexb.com</a> > < Caution-Caution-<br><a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com</a> < Caution-<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" target="_blank">mailto:pombredanne@<wbr>nexb.com</a> > ><br><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>DejaCode : What's in your code?! 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