<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Cem,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I believe this was already answered John Cowan, I was proven wrong. US does assert copyright for government works in other jurisdictions. Wikipedia provides these sources:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“The prohibition on copyright protection for United States Government works is not intended to have any effect on protection of these works abroad. Works of the governments of most other countries are copyrighted. There are no valid policy reasons for denying such protection to United States Government works in foreign countries, or for precluding the Government from making licenses for the use of its works abroad.” - House Report No. 94-1476</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">and </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“3.1.7 Does the Government have copyright protection in U.S. Government works in other countries?</div><div class="">Yes, the copyright exclusion for works of the U.S. Government is not intended to have any impact on protection of these works abroad (S. REP. NO. 473, 94th Cong., 2d Sess. 56 (1976)). Therefore, the U.S. Government may obtain protection in other countries depending on the treatment of government works by the national copyright law of the particular country. Copyright is sometimes asserted by U.S. Government agencies outside the United States.” <a href="http://www.cendi.gov/publications/04-8copyright.html#317" class="">http://www.cendi.gov/publications/04-8copyright.html#317</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However I am not sure how this would work with the Berne Convention, especially article 7(8) which states: ‘[..] the term shall be governed by the legislation of the country where protection is claimed; however, unless the legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the work.’ If the U.S. term of protection is 0 years, than other countries would also apply 0 years.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">@John, @Cem: do you have some case law about this? I would like to verify this with my academic network in the U.S. If not, any license you want to apply on this material is immediately void (which is only a theoretical problem imo).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Maarten</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">
<div class="">--<div class="">Kennisland | <a href="http://www.kl.nl" style="color: purple;" class="">www.kl.nl</a> | t +31205756720 | m +31643053919 | @mzeinstra</div></div>
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 29 Jul 2016, at 19:37, Karan, Cem F CIV USARMY RDECOM ARL (US) <<a href="mailto:cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil" class="">cem.f.karan.civ@mail.mil</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I'm sorry for getting back late to this, the lawyer I'm working with was called away for a bit and couldn't reply.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I asked specifically about this case; in our lawyer's opinion, the US Government does have copyright in foreign (to the US) countries. He says that there is case law where the US has asserted this, but he is checking to see if he can find case law regarding this to definitively answer the question.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Thanks,</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Cem Karan</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">-----Original Message-----<br class="">From: License-discuss [<a href="mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org" class="">mailto:license-discuss-bounces@opensource.org</a>] On Behalf Of Maarten Zeinstra<br class="">Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 7:49 AM<br class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org" class="">license-discuss@opensource.org</a><br class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" class="">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a><br class="">Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [License-discuss] US Army Research Laboratory Open Source License proposal<br class=""><br class="">All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links<br class="">contained within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">________________________________<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">Yes I am suggesting that if the country of origin of the work does not assign copyright to the work then no copyright is assigned world-<br class="">wide. My reasoning is that there is no entity to assign that copyright to.<br class=""><br class="">An example in a different field might support my argument.<br class=""><br class="">In the Netherlands we automatically assign (not transfer, which is important here) any IP rights of the employee to the employer if works<br class="">are created within the duties of the employee. That means that the employer is the rights holder. This rights holder is consequently also<br class="">recognised as the rights holder in other jurisdictions. Who might, given a similar situation in their own jurisdiction, normally assign the<br class="">right to the employee.<br class=""><br class="">Now if there is no rights holder to begin with (the U.S. waives it rights on government produced works as I understand, the Netherlands<br class="">government does the same), then no foreign rights can be assigned as well. Hence the work must be in the public domain world wide.<br class=""><br class="">I have more experience with Creative Commons-licenses than with Open Source license, but in CC licenses the license exists for the<br class="">duration of the right. I assume all Open Source licenses are basically the same in this regard. In that sense it does not matter which license<br class="">is applied as the license is immediately void, since there is no underlying right to license.<br class=""><br class="">Finally, in the past I have advised the dutch government to adopt CC0 to make the public domain status of their works clear. They have<br class="">adopted this since ~2011 on their main site:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="caution-https://www.government.nl/copyright" class="">Caution-https://www.government.nl/copyright</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>< Caution-<br class=""><a href="https://www.government.nl/copyright" class="">https://www.government.nl/copyright</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>> (english version). I advise the US army does something similar as well.<br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class=""><br class="">Maarten Zeinstra<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Kennisland |<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://caution-www.kl.nl/" class="">Caution-www.kl.nl</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="caution-http://www.kl.nl" class="">Caution-http://www.kl.nl</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>> | t +31205756720 | m +31643053919 | @mzeinstra<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>On 24 Jul 2016, at 08:26, Philippe Ombredanne <<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" class="">pombredanne@nexb.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>< Caution-<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" class="">mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>> > wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 11:23 PM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" class="">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>< Caution-<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" class="">mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>> > wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>It is true that this public domain result doesn't apply outside the U.S. But<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>if you apply a valid open source license to it – such as Apache 2.0 – that<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>should be good enough for everyone who doesn't live in the U.S. and<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>irrelevant for us here.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Larry, are you suggesting that Cem considers using some statement more<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>or less like this, rather than a new license?<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> This U.S. Federal Government work is not copyrighted and dedicated<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> to the public domain in the USA. Alternatively, the Apache-2.0<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>license applies<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> outside of the USA ?<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Maarten Zeinstra <<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" class="">mz@kl.nl</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>< Caution-<a href="mailto:mz@kl.nl" class="">mailto:mz@kl.nl</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>> > wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Is that the correct interpretation of the Berne convention? The convention<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>assigns copyright to foreigners of a signatory state with at least as strong<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>protection as own nationals. Since US government does not attract copyright<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I am unsure if they can attract copyright in other jurisdictions.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Maarten, are you suggesting then that the lack of copyright for a U.S. Federal<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Government work would just then apply elsewhere too and that using an<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>alternative Apache license would not even be needed?<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>--<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Cordially<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Philippe Ombredanne<br class=""><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>+1 650 799 0949 |<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" class="">pombredanne@nexB.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>< Caution-<a href="mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com" class="">mailto:pombredanne@nexb.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>DejaCode : What's in your code?! at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="caution-http://www.dejacode.com" class="">Caution-http://www.dejacode.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="caution-http://www.dejacode.com" class="">Caution-http://www.dejacode.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>nexB Inc. at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="caution-http://www.nexb.com" class="">Caution-http://www.nexb.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="caution-http://www.nexb.com" class="">Caution-http://www.nexb.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>_______________________________________________<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>License-discuss mailing list<br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><a href="mailto:License-discuss@opensource.org" class="">License-discuss@opensource.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>< Caution-<a href="mailto:License-discuss@opensource.org" class="">mailto:License-discuss@opensource.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><a href="caution-https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss" class="">Caution-https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">License-discuss mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:License-discuss@opensource.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">License-discuss@opensource.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/license-discuss</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>