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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Nigel, I was looking forward to your answers. They are well thought out. :-) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>But this part isn't true: "Whereas Apache is currently just ALv2 or ALv2 + some permissive license with a attribution clause." Read our NOTICE files (such as they currently exist), or browse the public archives of our contributions and our aggregations, or run code scans. The current policy allows "exceptions" to that policy you paraphrased:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><a href="https://www.apache.org/legal/ramblings.html">https://www.apache.org/legal/ramblings.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><a href="http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html">http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>OTOH, the draft proposal is less than a page long and fits easily in an email. (See attached.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Under the current rambled Apache policy there is a Legal-JIRA that is supposed to be posted for every question about what is "an exception." We're in the 200's in that archive. And the responses there do not benefit from any of the analytical skills [like Nigel's and many others!] here at OSI's license-discuss@. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>So help Apache! If there is a set of OSI-approved licenses that adequately scope "aggregations," including of course the EPL and MPL and the like, that you think are appropriate for an Apache project to include in an Apache aggregation, I'd much rather that OSI identify those licenses than that Apache's engineers JIRA it to death. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>The statement that you "use [GPL] where applicable" is right-on! I occasionally recommend that license too (as at CAVO@ here at OSI). But please don't forget the final paragraph in the draft Apache proposal:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>You may influence the inclusion or exclusion of specific third party contributions under OSI-approved licenses by joining the Apache project. All such decisions are made by Apache projects in public.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Under the Apache Way, I'd rather trust an OSI-blessed list of acceptable FOSS licenses, and have Apache projects give you a NOTICE file and let you decide. Remember, under ALv2 our Apache distributed aggregations are ALL always FOSS.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Finally, please, I'd rather hear the following statement from another brave lawyer here besides me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Nobody who modifies and redistributes software should accept the safety of Apache or any other FOSS software in a "brain-dead" way (quoting another email here). Be aware that we live in a commercial open source software world that includes the legal doctrine of "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willful_blindness">willful blindness</a>."</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Lawrence Rosen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>"If this were legal advice it would have been accompanied by a bill."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Tzeng, Nigel H. [mailto:Nigel.Tzeng@jhuapl.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 28, 2015 9:40 AM<br><b>To:</b> Lawrence Rosen; 'License Discuss'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-discuss] Proposal: Apache Third Party License Policy<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Larry,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>We’re not afraid of GPL and use it where applicable. The “where applicable” part is the issue. Same with “ALL other" OSI-approved licenses since each package would have to be reviewed as to whether it would be okay.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Whereas Apache is currently just ALv2 or ALv2 + some permissive license with a attribution clause. It is easy for a Project Manager or Legal to say “if it’s from Apache it’s okay to use”. It’s a known quantity and you can trust the brand. Muddy the waters and this is no longer true and a huge step backwards.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Show me the case law to prove what you term aggregation is not what the FSF calls derivative and provide indemnification against copyright infringement if it isn’t aggregation. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>THEN the concerns are mitigated. Otherwise inclusion of any copyleft licensed code in Apache projects is a huge issue for users.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='color:black'>Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>>, License Discuss <<a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org">license-discuss@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 2:17 PM<br><b>To: </b>License Discuss <<a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org">license-discuss@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [License-discuss] Proposal: Apache Third Party License Policy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Nigel, your answer echoes many others:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>> </span><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>If I have to start checking every Apache package for GPL code I’ll have to</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>> strongly recommend that we approach all Apache packages with caution.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>If we amended the proposal to leave out the GPL licenses, would that calm your concerns? </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I'd really hate to do that at Apache for that set of generous FOSS licenses, but fear is fear.... Apache didn't cause this fear of "infection" and Apache can't cure it. There is a group of attorneys that is drafting an appropriate "exception" that would allow at least some GPL software to be aggregated with Apache software.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>But are ALL other OSI-approved licenses OK with you? </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>/Larry</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> Tzeng, Nigel H. [<a href="mailto:Nigel.Tzeng@jhuapl.edu">mailto:Nigel.Tzeng@jhuapl.edu</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 27, 2015 9:42 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:members@apache.org">members@apache.org</a>; <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>; 'License Discuss'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [License-discuss] Proposal: Apache Third Party License Policy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Thanks, without the context it was somewhat harder to follow on license-discuss.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Consider this a vote in the negative as a non-member user of Apache software. If I have to start checking every Apache package for GPL code I’ll have to strongly recommend that we approach all Apache packages with caution.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Becoming a “universal acceptor” significantly impacts your ability to be a “universal donor”. I have no desire to accidentally be the cause of any organization I work for becoming the test case for what is an aggregation vs what is a derivative. If Apache was willing to indemnify downstream users…yah, I didn’t think so.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Nice try though.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='color:black'>From: </span></b><span style='color:black'>"<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>><br><b>Reply-To: </b>"<a href="mailto:members@apache.org">members@apache.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:members@apache.org">members@apache.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>>, License Discuss <<a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org">license-discuss@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 10:16 PM<br><b>To: </b>License Discuss <<a href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org">license-discuss@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>[License-discuss] Proposal: Apache Third Party License Policy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>[This has been a hellishly long thread on private Apache lists before the board cut off discussion on revised policies. Below was the short start of it I submitted over two weeks ago. Apache board members don't want to revise current policy. Many Apache members don't want it. Still, it is a serious proposal to bring some more freedom and cooperation to open source. Please treat this as a political document for license-discuss@. /Larry]</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>…</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>