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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Arthur Tam asked:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>However, back to my question<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>is why Apache License v2.0 doesn't require Licensor open the source in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>the *stated way* but still approved by OSI. It seems the Apache License<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>not comply with OSD #2. Why I'm start this thread is because SpringSource<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>new maintenance policy. I just wonder SpringSource has no obligation to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>release the fixes/patches along with source code after the "free" period<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>base on Apache License v2.0 that you can access by some means (although<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>somebody say they will release the fixes in source code somewhere)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Getting back to your question about the Apache License
2.0: As one of the attorneys for the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), I can
vouch for all software it distributes under its license. All of ASF's open
source software includes source code which is available for free download. [See
<a href="http://www.apache.org/">www.apache.org</a>] <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If some other company were to apply the Apache License
2.0 to their own software but then not actually provide you with source code to
that software, that's not open source as I understand it. I've never known an open
source company to charge an "unreasonable" fee for source code to their
own open source software. Whether you have standing to sue in court to demand
the source code "for free" is a separate question I would almost
certainly not try to answer publicly here.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>bcc: Apache legal-discuss list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Lawrence Rosen</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (<a
href="http://www.rosenlaw.com">www.rosenlaw.com</a>)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>707-485-1242 * cell: 707-478-8932 * fax:
707-485-1243</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Skype: LawrenceRosen</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software
Freedom and </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>
Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> Arthur Tam [mailto:arthur_tam2004@yahoo.com.hk] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, September 26, 2008
8:32 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> lrosen@rosenlaw.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> license-discuss@opensource.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Apache License v2.0</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dear Lawrence Rosen,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Totally agree with your message which is what I'm understand when I'm<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>first reading the license GPLv3 and OSD. However, back to my question<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>is why Apache License v2.0 doesn't require Licensor open the source in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the *stated way* but still approved by OSI. It seems the Apache License<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>not comply with OSD #2. Why I'm start this thread is because SpringSource<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>new maintenance policy. I just wonder SpringSource has no obligation to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>release the fixes/patches along with source code after the "free" period<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>base on Apache License v2.0 that you can access by some means (although<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>somebody say they will release the fixes in source code somewhere)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Rgds,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Arthur<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>John Cowan wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Open Source does not mean that if I have the source, you can make me<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> send it to you. It means that if you have the source, the copyright<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> owner can't stop you from sending it to whoever you want.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Likewise, the GPL does not mean that if I have the source, you can make<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> me send it to you, *unless* I have already (or at the same time) sent<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> you a binary version.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Open source usually means what the OSI-approved license says it means. <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>For OSL 3.0, "Licensor agrees to provide a machine-readable copy of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Source Code of the Original Work along with each copy of the Original Work<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that Licensor distributes. Licensor reserves the right to satisfy this<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>obligation by placing a machine-readable copy of the Source Code in an<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>information repository reasonably calculated to permit inexpensive and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>convenient access by You for as long as Licensor continues to distribute the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Original Work." [<a
href="http://opensource.org/licenses/osl-3.0.php">http://opensource.org/licenses/osl-3.0.php</a>, §4]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So this license places an obligation on the *Licensor* to provide the source<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>code to licensees regardless of whether any licensee asks for it. Source<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>either accompanies the Original Work, or it is posted by the Licensor<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>somewhere convenient. [Or else the Licensor is in breach of his own license<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>and subject to paying damages and attorney's fees if a licensee can't<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>actually get the source code!]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>With OSL 3.0, any licensee who in turn distributes the Original Work or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Derivative Works to third parties automatically and reciprocally becomes a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>*Licensor* and thereby accepts the obligation to provide source. [§1(c), §4]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>As for the GPL, the issue with that license is usually whether a licensee<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>who modifies the code is required to publish *its* source code. I leave that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>interpretation for the FSF to write. <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Lawrence Rosen<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (<a
href="http://www.rosenlaw.com">www.rosenlaw.com</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>707-485-1242 * cell: 707-478-8932 * fax: 707-485-1243<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Skype: LawrenceRosen<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: John Cowan [<a
href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">mailto:cowan@ccil.org</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 8:54 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> To: Arthur Tam<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Cc: John Cowan; <a
href="mailto:license-discuss@opensource.org">license-discuss@opensource.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Subject: Re: Apache License v2.0<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Arthur Tam scripsit:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> > Thanks for your rapid reply. But OSI approved Apache License v2.0 which<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> > imply it should complied to OSD. However, if just base on the license,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> > a software using Apache License v2.0 can be not open the source. If so,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> > why the license can be approved by OSI. Am I missing something?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Open Source does not mean that if I have the source, you can make me<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> send it to you. It means that if you have the source, the copyright<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> owner can't stop you from sending it to whoever you want.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Likewise, the GPL does not mean that if I have the source, you can make<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> me send it to you, *unless* I have already (or at the same time) sent<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> you a binary version.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> OSD #2 is different from all the other parts of the OSD. #1 and #3-#10<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> are constraints on the *license*: they say, "If a license does not allow<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <whatever>, it is not an Open Source license". But #2 says that if the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> *program* is not available in source form, the *program* is not open<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> source. So there are two requirements for a program to be open source:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> the source must be available and the license must conform to the OSD #1<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> and #3-#10. If something is not source, then it cannot be open source.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> --<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> A mosquito cried out in his pain, John Cowan<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> "A chemist has poisoned my brain!" <a
href="http://www.ccil.org/%7Ecowan">http://www.ccil.org/~cowan</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> The cause of his sorrow <a
href="mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@ccil.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Was para-dichloro-<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Diphenyltrichloroethane. (aka DDT)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
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