[License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL) 0.4.0

Thu Aug 18 15:53:23 UTC 2016

Cem, I'd be happy to put you in touch with Alvand in the white house if you
are not already chatting. Email me off thread if so..

On Aug 18, 2016 8:47 AM, "Smith, McCoy" <mccoy.smith at intel.com> wrote:

> Given that the White House just released a memorandum on encouraging the
> USG to make more use of open source, and specifically said that it will be
> releasing licensing guidance on code.gov, perhaps the issues around 17
> USC 105 and existing open source licenses will be resolved (or at least,
> the issues around existing open source licenses will be identified clearly)
> on behalf of all the USG:
> https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/
> memoranda/2016/m_16_21.pdf
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: License-discuss [mailto:license-discuss-bounces at opensource.org] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Sean Morrison
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 1:27 AM
> To: license-discuss at opensource.org
> Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re:
> U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL) 0.4.0
>
> There is exceptional evidence that the status quo is wholly inadequate.
> OSI fails to recognize challenges faced within the Federal Government, and
> it hurts open source adoption.
>
> Statistically speaking as the largest producer of source code on the
> planet, the U.S. Federal Government *should* be one of the largest
> participants in open source yet there is barely a presence.  Some people
> recognize NASA as one of the largest proponents in the Gov’t space, yet
> they are one of the smaller agencies with one of the smallest budgets.
> Federal R&D, which is predominantly computer science work, is more than
> double the size of NASA’s entire agency!  There are more computer
> scientists writing code for the Gov’t than there are for any single company
> in existence, including the likes of Google and Microsoft.
>
> Let that sink in for a minute.
>
> Where is all the code?  If it was simply a release issue, there would at
> least be lots of public domain code floating — there’s demonstrably not.
> [1]  If even a measurable percentage of Government lawyers felt existing
> OSI licenses were apropos, there would be a ample evidence of agencies
> using MIT/Apache/LGPL/etc — there’s demonstrably not. [2]
>
> There has been presented here a position by at least two major federal
> agencies (DoD and NASA) that copyright-based licensing is specifically
> viewed as a problem by their respective lawyers.  There is obvious
> disagreement and uncertainty, but therein lies a fundamental problem.
> Nobody’s opinion has been tested.  Nobody can prove that their point is any
> more or less correct.
>
> Lacking case law evidence, all that remains is overwhelming industry
> evidence that what is currently available is not in any way viewed as
> adequate in the Federal space.  At a minimum, there is enough uncertainty
> that there is zero-% penetration.
>
> You have agencies here trying their damnedest to find ways to support open
> source amidst ambiguous regulations, unique legal circumstances
> (copyright), notoriously risk-averse environments, and untested theories.
> You have specific representatives (for huge organizations) here saying “I
> would use this, it would help us”.  That to me those make for pretty
> freaking compelling reasons to support any new open source licensing, if it
> will increase adoption of open source in the Federal space.
>
> I ran on this platform for the 2016 OSI board election and missed it by
> fewer votes than I have fingers.  This is a problem to a tremendous number
> of people.  OSI licensing isn’t the only problem [3] faced by the Federal
> Government, but it is one of the most significant that has solutions being
> presented.  NOSA 1.3 was offered but was then immediately shot down by FSF
> (for good reason, why is it even still on OSI's list??); NOSA 2.0 won’t
> likely be a solution without rework.  ARL OSL aims to be so transparently
> compatible that it arguably limits proliferation (to the extent you can
> while creating a new agreement) and has much greater adoption potential
> with ASL’s rigor behind it.
>
> Dissenting won’t make agencies suddenly agree to just slap copyright-based
> licensing on their works or even releasing into PD.  It will just continue
> to be lost opportunities for open source until there is congressional
> mandate, DoJ/DoC clarity, or case law clarity.  White house is currently
> advocating and creating discussion, but we’ll see if that survives the
> election.
>
> Cheers!
> Sean
>
> [1] NIST, NASA, and 18F are outliers among hundreds of agencies.
> [2] What you can find are works involving contractors where copyright gets
> assigned.
> [3] Cultural ignorance is so maligned that DoD CIO actually had to tell
> agencies it’s *illegal* to NOT consider open source.
>
>
> > On Aug 17, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Radcliffe, Mark <
> Mark.Radcliffe at dlapiper.com> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with McCoy.  As outside General Counsel of the OSI for more than
> 10 years, the drafting of a new "open source" license requires strong
> reasons.  The reasons that I have seen in the list don't meet that
> standard.  I strongly recommend against trying to develop a new "open
> source" license.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: License-discuss [mailto:license-discuss-bounces at opensource.org]
> > On Behalf Of Smith, McCoy
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 11:54 AM
> > To: license-discuss at opensource.org
> > Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source]
> > Re: U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL) 0.4.0
> >
> > Or to put a finer point on it, the other issues you identify appear to
> be ones that are explicitly addressed in many already-approved OSI
> licenses, including Apache 2.0, the one you are modeling your license upon.
> >
> > I hope you're getting a sense that there are several lawyers on this
> mailing list -- lawyers who have years of experience looking at, debating,
> and giving advice on the issues you identify in this submission -- who
> think that your proposed license is a variant of Apache 2.0 designed to
> solve a "problem" for USG users with Apache 2.0 that we are skeptical even
> exists.  Perhaps the ARL lawyers can clarify what the problem is, and that
> we are missing something.  But I think at least I am having a hard time
> understanding how this license does anything that Apache 2.0 doesn't.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: License-discuss [mailto:license-discuss-bounces at opensource.org]
> > On Behalf Of Richard Fontana
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 11:33 AM
> > To: license-discuss at opensource.org
> > Subject: Re: [License-discuss] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [Non-DoD Source]
> > Re: U.S. Army Research Laboratory Open Source License (ARL OSL) 0.4.0
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 06:17:07PM +0000, Karan, Cem F CIV USARMY RDECOM
> ARL (US) wrote:
> >>
> >> Once again, liability isn't the only issue; there are also copyright
> >> issues (for contributors), and IP issues.  If we could solve the
> >> problem via a simple disclaimer of liability, we would.  We need to
> handle ALL the issues.
> >
> > Even if you were correct in the assertions you've made about ARL code,
> why is a new license needed for contributors other than ARL?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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