[License-discuss] Is what's made with Open Source, Open Source?

Fri Jun 12 16:02:26 UTC 2015

First: I am not a lawyer just an interested bystander with an opinion and a problem to keep his mouth shut.

So Rapid applications are basically complex configuration files.

Let's say you create a specification for this type configuration files and Rapid is the reference implementation.

Let's say somebody creates a new implementation of that specification, the Rapid applications run on the new implementation without modification, and the new implementation is completely free of GPL (that is the Rapid applications have no direct dependency on GPLed code)...

... then I would fathom that applications created with Rapid would not be touched by the reciprocal clauses in the GPL very much in the same way that documents created with a word processor would not be touched by it.

My 0.5 cents.

Btw. I think that restricting what you can so with the output of a build tools such as Rapid may well restrict its adoption - in case you care about that.

Cheers,

-- Richard

On 11.06.2015, at 21:53, Gareth Edwards <gareth.edwards at rapid-is.co.uk> wrote:

> Hey many thanks Max,
> 
> This is all really helpful - as you can imagine I'm trying to understand this as fully as I can...
> 
> Over on my Reddit post (http://redd.it/39gpcy) there's a reply that as Rapid is a server platform it doesn't get distributed like a typical desktop application so GPLv3 doesn't apply, and AGPLv3 should be used instead. Giving AGPL a quick read this makes sense to me, but not having heard of it before I wondered whether AGPL was sound and/or a better choice?
> 
> The Open Office document is a good example: I write an essay in Open Office and is the essay Open Source? Of course not, the words in the text are all my own. However the font is not, and, erm, neither are the other "building blocks" which Open Office is using to show me my essay. The essay can exist entirely independently of Open Office, and I can do things like print it, and still have what makes my essay, my essay, and retain it after it's creation without any further requirement for Open Office.
> 
> And this is where Rapid apps get tricky. The debate (I think) is can a Rapid app exist, like my essay, independently of the Rapid platform used to make it? (like FileZilla can exist outside of the mysys compiler) And the answer is, no it can't. What users generate with Rapid are just definition files of properties and what Rapid controls (html snippets) are on pages and what Rapid actions (JavaScript and pre-compiled server-side code) get called when. The app has to constantly refer back to the platform resources to generate the pages and execute the actions. I assume this is linking, or even derivation? Is it enough to ensure Rapid apps are Open Source?
> 
> Not that ensuring Rapid apps are Open Source is necessarily the end goal - I just need to be sure if it's yay or nay.
> 
> Isn't software interesting?
> 
> Thanks for your time and help so far.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Gareth
> 
> 
> Gareth Edwards
> Rapid Information Systems Ltd.
> http://www.rapid-is.co.uk
> gareth.edwards at rapid-is.co.uk
> Office : 02081239508
> Mobile : 07818830430
> 
> On 11/06/15 19:36, Maximilian wrote:
>> On 10/06/2015 12:33, Gareth Edwards wrote:
>>> The big thing everyone wants to know (and no-one seems to be able to answer), is are the apps made with Rapid also Open Source, i.e. are app creators obliged to share the code and files for apps they've made using Rapid with the rest of the Rapid community?
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> This post might seem a bit long - I'm just throwing a few ideas up into the air here with the usual disclaimers and hoping others will comment and correct me where I'm wrong. 
>> 
>> I had a quick look at Rapid - sounds interesting and something that I would certainly find useful for, ahem, rapid development and prototyping and for building admin interfaces for backends :)
>> 
>> To answer your question in brief - not typically.
>> 
>> There would be two ways of looking at the question of whether the "apps made wth Rapid [are] also Open Source":
>> 1.    the licensing terms of Rapid require app developers to release any applications created with it under a specified licence (e.g. GPLv3); or
>> 2.    apps built on Rapid are derivative works of Rapid itself and therefore remain within the GPLv3
>> 
>> Regarding point one, the GPLv3 doesn't allow for this. If it did, for example, documents made with LibreOffice would themselves be licensed under the GPLv3. Technically I think it would be possible for such a licence to still be compatible with the Open Source Definition, although I can't name a licence like that off the top of my head.
>> 
>> With respect to point two, you'd need to show that the apps built using Rapid are actually derived works. From the viewpoint of the Free Software Foundation, they would probably see that as the apps are completely dependent on Rapid, perhaps moreso than a software library, the apps would therefore form "derivative works" and be licensed under the GPL. I don't know how successful that argument would be in court, and especially here as the apps are not seen as modifications or improvements to Rapid but instead apps in their own right which are merely interpreted by/linked to Rapid. 
>> 
>> Another thing to note is that the GPL only really takes effect on distribution or propagation of software. Therefore, even if apps were somehow required to be licensed under the GPLv3 or were otherwise considered derivative works, app creators wouldn't actually be obliged to share the code and files with others where they were merely developing the apps for their own use. It's only where the developer wants to give (or make available) the app to other people/entities where that developer would be required to release the source code for that app.
>> 
>> 
>> TL;DR - if you really want to make sure that the apps created with Rapid are themselves open source then you'd probably want some form of custom OSD-compatible software licence.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Max
> 
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