Can Java code EVER be GPLd, at all?

[Justin Wells]

On Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 12:35:29AM -0800, Arandir wrote:

> > Philosophically, this is not very different than dictating to someone else 
> > that they use my license when they include my code in their application. 
> > We've just changed the linking technology slightly, and then made the 
> > same statement. 
> 
> Not at all. I'm assuming that your license would follow the typical free
> software definition. If so, then I am not distributing, modifying,
> distributing such modifications, or even *using* your source code.
> All I am doing is using your binary in the manner in which it
> was intended.

Obviously you are legally correct WRT to the GPL, or at least it seems
to me that you are. That's why I'm raising the question.

You may not agree that what the GPL does is good: force other peoples 
software to become GPL'd software because it uses GPL'd code. I think 
this is good, and I am trying to work out how to accomplish the same
for Java code. 

For example, perhaps you could draft an OSD/FSF compliant licence 
that relied on a definition of "depends on". There might be legally 
nasty stuff involved in that--let's talk about it!


> >    --> Is it possible to copyleft a Java program, at all? <--

> Absolutely! I've seen several GPL'd java programs. They exist, therefore it's
> possible :-)

And in fact one of them is mine: www.webmacro.org, which is the source 
of my concern about this issue.

> But java executables are fundamentally different than C executables. I'm not
> a java expert, but it seems to me that they are meant to be
> distributed and run differently.

Java links at runtime. Although often compiled against the actual source
code in the first place, none of the original source is actually copied 
into the new class. Just references to names. 

It's almost exactly the same thing as what happens in perl when you 
link in some contributed module. 

Please don't tell me that I should be happy with a non-copyleft, since I 
believe in the copyleft concept and I would like to have that. We can 
debate its merits later--right now I am focusing on the technical problem
of how it could be accomplished. The debate over whether it is a good or 
bad idea has already been exhausted without resolution :-) 


> Trying to treat java like C would be like the post office trying
> to sell stamps for email.

Right. Which is why the GPL may not be an appropriate way to copyleft 
Java source code!

> I would lighten up, and rest comfortably in the fact that no one
> can make your java code "unfree".

Oh, I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade. My code is out under the GPL
now, and for now it's OK. I can live with the problems--however I would 
like to know how I could get a more effective copyleft. 

Right now nobody can make my code non-free, but my code is not contributing
to the creation of any new free software, and I would like it to.

Justin