<div dir="ltr">Folks-<div>As I suggested yesterday (my posts are being delayed, see PS at bottom), this thread is wandering away from the intended focus, perhaps unintentionally hijacked by a (for the time being), irrelevant discussion.</div><div><br></div><div>One is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. As my last contribution on this thread (as I am much more interested in the VVSG and work towards new certification process and model), let me offer these incontrovertible points:<br></div><div><br></div><div>1. Mr. Turner is unfortunately not apprised of who Dr. Kiniry is or his years of experience in this sector. A quick lookup in Google, Bing, or search engine of one's choice will remedy that.</div><div><br></div><div>2. Dr. Kiniry was actually at the November S.F. Hearing mentioned; one can find his testimony on that audio record as well.</div><div><br></div><div>3. A resolution of the S.F. government created the S.F. Task Force, for which I was selected as a seated member, holding one of the two positions representing computer science; Dr. Ka Ping Yee was the other. No single individual created the Voting Systems Task Force (And could not legally do so), although several had pushed for it with the City including folks like Roger Donaldson, long time SF activist and Oracle executive, who deserves a bunch of credit for navigating the politics to do so.</div><div><br></div><div>4. The Voting Systems Task Force had absolutely nothing to do with any kind of open source development effort, licenses aside. The Report did discuss the potential of OSS.</div><div><br></div><div>5. I could be mistaken, but I do not believe NH Election Director Anthony Stevens is prepared to say NH has "adopted" for production anything for public elections but is in pilot, evaluation, and testing of several technologies, the Prime III included. One should not get ahead of their skis on that. </div><div><br></div><div>6. It is also incredibly difficult to believe that the EAC's Bryan Newby could be on anyone's Board or serve as an Advisor thereof of any organization within this same domain space as the EAC, this would be a violation of government regulations on participating by a government official as an Advisor in an organization whose work is a direct benefit, consequence of, or impacted by the regulatory agency for which the individual is employed. That's basic Administrative law. Exceptions can be made, but I doubt it here. During the time Mr. Newby was in employed in Johnson County, KS as its Election Chief, that may have been the case, but not after he joined the U.S. EAC.</div><div><br></div><div>7. The OSET Foundation is not "peddling" anything; we're a nonprofit research institute backed by philanthropists and Foundations. Our history in open source is deep; its roots are in the Mozilla Foundation and Netscape, including licensing counsel. The OSS world is a broad and diverse community. It is incorrect to suggest that one's standing in the OSS world is predicated on which groups, sub-groups or sections of that community they participate or "reach out" to engage. That would be like suggesting that if you're from NY and you do not consort with those from CA, then you're not American. And we welcome scrutiny.</div><div><br></div><div>8. I don't believe anyone here considers this industry to offer a "money grab" opportunity. Election products and services is a stagnant industry with a dysfunctional market. As the forthcoming Wharton Industry Study will show it is at best a $300M annual market in the U.S., a backwater of government I.T. hardly worthy of any characterization as a growth opportunity.</div><div><br></div><div>9. The OSET OPL license (designed for those counties procuring a system that has contained in that purchase an OSS license), required only one (1) change in order to be approved by the OSI -- a change that made sense and which was done. So, I'm not sure whose eyebrows are being raised by what. The OPL is an open source license as determined by the OSI, and I believe it deserves to be acknowledged as such, and not ridiculed by innuendo or claims unsubstantiated by the facts. It was approved. It may not be one preferred by some, but the license is not meant for everyone. It offers nothing less than the GPL in terms of an open source, weak copyleft license and offers some terms that help adoption in those jurisdictions who would otherwise use the GPL as a legal excuse to not adopt. And in any event, the terms of the OPL allow any licensee who is "not in the ordinary course of commercial business to deliver elections systems or services" to accept the source code under the GPL. We encourage people to read the license information, it is all explained there. <a href="http://www.osetfoundation.org/public-license">http://www.osetfoundation.org/public-license</a> The license was only developed to ensure certain perceived barriers to adoption could be removed in the purchase of voting systems that one day might contain OSS. We have been, and continue to be perplexed as to why this non-issue remains an issue for some.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, I'm not sure whose moderating here, but I submit that ad-hominem attacks are not productive.</div><div><br></div><div>My two cents and some fact to go with it.</div><div>Best</div><div>Greg</div><div>OSET Institute</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>PS: For those receiving this, for some reason my posts are being held-up in a moderator queue and I'm listed as unsubscribed which is weird, unless something changed with my subscription. I've asked John Wack for some direction to the Admin to fix that.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Brent Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com" target="_blank">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div>Hello Joe--<div><br></div><div>As you are relatively new to the election reform space-- and I don't know you-- let me preface the conversation with some harsh truth for you. I am not, nor are my associated groups ( specifically CAVO) , VENDORS. CAVO is a 501 ( c ) 6 public benefit corp created to facilitate the pooling of jurisdiction resources and to provide education regarding open source elections. </div><div><br></div><div>I started the SF effort in 2004 and later created the SF Voting Systems Task Force. The work then was GPL - as the work now is GPL. The OVC Linuxworld demo of 2008 was GPL see <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8CSKdMTARY" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8CSKdMTARY</a> The OVC " Dechert Design ' was originally released in 2004-- FYI </div><div><br></div><div>If you have an issue with GPL.. or specifically GPL v3 , I would suggest you hash that out with other licensing experts. Admittedly I am not an expert on this particular point, but rather a communications fellow and activist. I believe Lawrence Rosen may have time to educate you.. but that is up to him as he works pro bono as well. <span style="font-size:12.8px">Here is a prime example from last year. Here is the audio from the NOV 2015 SF Elections Commission meeting</span></div><br style="font-size:12.8px"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnrHKXmbS74" style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnrHKXmbS74</a><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Our associate, Dr. Juan Gilbert, had brought this up at the previous Commission meeting: NH is starting to use his Prime 3 system. Before he joined up with CAVO, Prime 3 was not GPL. I urged Gilbert to go with GPL. However, he had already released his code to NH. </span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Problem: it's not shareable because it wasn't GPL at the time he gave it to them.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">The discussion goes from about 30:50 to about 41:20 in the recording.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">32:50 -- modifications not available (Jerdonek).</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">36:45 -- question about sharing modifications</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">38:30 -- are they happy to share it? (commissioner)</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">40:00 -- only concerned for making it work for themselves (Jerdonek)</span><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Furthermore, all members of CAVO are good hearted supporters of our mission. If you know of someone that is not please apprise. Your McCarthy-esque innuendo does not hold water or influence. <span style="font-size:12.8px">Allegations that CAVO directors and/or advisory board members are not real are simply ridiculous. : You are lying. </span>The board of CAVO are " do-gooders " that have worked , many since 2000, pro bono at great personal burden to themselves. We are self funded.. and beholden to no one. Brian Newby ( EAC )- Dr Juan Gilbert ( UOF ) Brian Fox ( FSF ) Lawrence Rosen and many other esteemed CAVO board members can attest to our pioneering efforts. </div><div><br></div><div>it is my studied opinion that a candid, truthful assessment of the community from an internal affairs perspective is valuable toward future decision making. When people that are proprietary shills attempt to color the the voting system arena it must be noted. Thanks for assisting that effort. </div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>BT </div><div><br></div><div><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div></font></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Joe Kiniry <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kiniry@freeandfair.us" target="_blank">kiniry@freeandfair.us</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Brent,<div><br></div><div>It is clear that you do not understand Open Source licensing, despite your trolling on the topic for years.</div><div><br></div><div>Your implicit claims that San Francisco has both chosen GPL as a license and somehow chosen your pseudo-organization as a vendor are an invention.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, your public behavior and continued slandering of OSET and similar organizations bears witness to this community of your nature. I hope that <a href="http://www.cavo-us.org/staff.html" target="_blank">those listed as being associated with CAVO</a>—as I know in the past that individuals listed on your website were unaware and disavowed any connection to CAVO—realize the potential impact to their reputations.</div><div><br></div><div>Now let’s get back to discussing substantial issues with future certification of election systems.</div><div><br></div><div>Joe Kiniry</div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 30, 2016, at 09:38, Brent Turner <<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com" target="_blank">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Arthur--</span><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">No. </div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Disclosed code is a ruse. E S & S was busted and fined in CA but I'm sure you don't need that example. This is elementary so I am curious as to your message. </div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"> The OVC ( Alan Dechert ) position has been strictly GPL since at least 2008. I know your association with that group started fading around that time. Brian Fox( first employee of Free Software Foundation / Bash shell creator ) ' did the OVC 2008 Linuxworld demo with GPL-- and Kai Ping Yee followed suit with his GPL based OVC work.. </div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">CAVO now recommends -- per Larry Rosen and a host of others.. GPL v3</div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Best-</div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">BT </div><div style="font-size:12.8px"> </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Arthur Keller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ark@soe.ucsc.edu" target="_blank">ark@soe.ucsc.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>No, the key is to have a license where the software is disclosed and people are free to experiment with it. Those were the principles of the OVC Disclosed license we created years ago. </div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Arthur </div><div><br>On Jul 30, 2016, at 1:19 AM, Brent Turner <<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com" target="_blank">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">All-- My apologies for not realizing Kapor had backed away from his association with OSET. Through the succession of name changes it is hard to track principals. The main thing to recognize here is that even though an " open source " group may technically obtain Open Source Initiative licensing.. OSI recommends the group attempting to peddle services or products under the open source flag should be scrutinized for open source history and their participation with the open source community. A group that does not reach out to the said open source community - is founded by proprietary purveyors- and invents new licenses and licensing schemes is obviously going to raise eyebrows. The open source community is very protective of reputation as it is now understood the proprietary code businessmen are discovering the traction of open source.. and the traction coming available in the election system arena. Obviously there is not only a money grab issue inherent .. but also a power grab issue due to the outflow of elections<div><br></div><div>Groups that do not advocate the ubiquitous General Public License continue to raise hackles (even though we have managed to curtail most efforts to pass through offending aspects of ill conceived license attempts.) Furthermore, misdirection statements such as " The government purchasers say they want a new open source license " are flags as well. The idea is to utilize a license that will encourage participation from the community. <div><br></div><div>Billionaires like Kelly - Kapor and Paul Allen are coming into the space of elections with a fury, but this issue is not simply solved by throwing money toward politicians or large designs. The best design is so simple it's almost evasive. By keeping it simple with GPL and COTS .. the jurisdictions will be economically empowered.. and removed from the current " vendor trap " </div><div><br></div><div>BT </div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Gregory Miller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gmiller@osetfoundation.org" target="_blank">gmiller@osetfoundation.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Apologies folks,<div><br><div>But my Legal Department has me under an obligation whenever this comes up, to clarify that Mitch Kapor is no longer involved with the OSET Institute (Foundation) or its TrustTheVote Project, and has not been since 2011. </div><div><br></div><div>The OSET Institute is funded by several private philanthropists, led by former Facebook general counsel Chris Kelly, the Democracy Fund, and the Knight Foundation. Moreover, we receive no funding whatsoever from Microsoft Corporation nor any commercial vendor of election technology.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Sorry, but I am obligated by agreement to make this clarification due to continued misstatements by others.</div><div>Thank you and respectfully,</div><div>Gregory Miller</div><div>OSET Institute</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Brent Turner <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com" target="_blank">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote in relevant part<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>..... we need to watchdog anything that has Microsoft's involvement as it might in fact be an in-road for Mitch Kapor's OSET effort to nuance the open source voting effort-- </div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><b style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Gregory Miller</b><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font 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