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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Finally, an online discussion here rather than merely quotes from newspapers! :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Juan Gilbert wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>> </span>Taxes, banking, etc, allow you to verify your data. If your account balance is wrong, you can verify it and take action. Voting is the opposite, you are not allowed to verify your ballot. This is why we need a physical ballot that can be hand counted that is not attached to a single voter. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Yes, and that is why I suggested, in my previous email, that both the voter and the county print and email the anonymous ballot (with unique bar code, perhaps), so that it can be hand counted if necessary in an audit. I'm not qualified to design an unbreakable system – just a better system.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>> </span>Sorry, but it's a fact, electronic ballots can be hacked and you would never know it.<span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I am not naive. I own lots of hackable devices on which I perform essential tasks much more important than voting. And by way of comparison, I just voted by paper ballot and mail in California, a system that could trivially be hacked if someone really wanted to.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I joined this project because we advocate open source. Even Linux inside a heart-lung machine can be hacked, but I expect our community to see that and complain, and fix the hacks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Gilbert,Juan E [mailto:juan@ufl.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 5, 2016 4:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> lrosen@rosenlaw.com; CAVO <cavo@opensource.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Any 100% electronic voting can be manipulated. If you have an electronic voting system, I can guarantee you it can be hacked, meaning the outcome of the election can be changed undetected. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Taxes, banking, etc, allow you to verify your data. If your account balance is wrong, you can verify it and take action. Voting is the opposite, you are not allowed to verify your ballot. This is why we need a physical ballot that can be hand counted that is not attached to a single voter. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Rocket science is actually easier than voting. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Sorry, but it's a fact, electronic ballots can be hacked and you would never know it. You would suspect something was hacked because of the outcome but you couldn't prove anything. I don't think anyone wants that scenario. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>If any of you know if an electronic system that can't be hacked, please let me know. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>---<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>On Jun 5, 2016, at 12:58 AM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>David, thanks for continuing this thread. It is good that this CAVO list discusses actual solutions to real-world California voting problems rather than merely share our fears and newspaper press releases.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want a very simple replacement for the error-prone and insecure paper ballot that I used this week to pick our president. I hear that the majority of California voters vote this way by mail. There is NOTHING about this system that prevents any of the evil frauds and corruption that you expect from businesses and politicians, so be scared about our <u>current</u> third world voting system. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want something simpler:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want to receive an electronic ballot at my email address on my computer or mobile device. That's how the county and the U.S. government currently deal with me for almost everything else of significance, including my taxes!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want to vote at my leisure. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want to print out and/or save my completed ballot. I'll keep it secret if I want to or show my friends.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want to send my ballot electronically to the county. (Yesterday I placed my completed paper ballot in a metal box in front of the county offices – with no security or auditability whatsoever. I am <u>now</u> paranoid!)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want the county to email me a confirmation and a copy of my completed ballot.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want the county to process my ballot on election day.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>?<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I want this entire procedure to be auditable with email addresses, PINs, or whatever the kind of technology our Facebook and LinkedIn friends are willing to accept for security.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>If we can't do that without sending astronauts to Mars, then your technology solution is perhaps way too complex and paranoid. :-)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> David RR Webber (XML) [<a href="mailto:david@drrw.info">mailto:david@drrw.info</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 4, 2016 9:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> CAVO <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Larry,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>You are right to compare the USA to a third world country - its getting there.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>The Kenya system is called M-Pesa - "Mobile money". It is using a secure system invented in England - and the password is a simple PIN code.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Notice you will NOT be able to do this is the USA because the banks and the IRS do not want you doing that - creating an alternative financial system with no central tracking system - that actually empowers small business and entrepreneurship. Here we still use paper cash money for that purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>It is terribly inconvenient that people have to use old arcane paper ballots - but it is VERY necessary. You only have to look at how corrupt politicians are - and how adept they are at deflecting responsibility to realize that opening the flood gates to digital fraud is not prudent. Not to mention routine hacking of systems in 3 out of every 4 businesses in the USA.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Everything in the USA is being gamed. What is the real price of bread, milk, eggs, gas, cars, paper, sugar, corn... ? Again - the current primaries system tells you much. Want to make primaries voting all digital - so no one has any clue who actually voted, and for whom really?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>May as well walk those envelopes over to your recycle bin and just toss them in there.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>But I'm not paranoid - I just have a healthy distrust and cynicism built in.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Cheers, David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=replyBlockquote><div id=wmQuoteWrapper><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting<br>From: "Lawrence Rosen" <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>><br>Date: Thu, June 02, 2016 5:54 pm<br>To: "'CAVO'" <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br>Cc: Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>David Webber wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Please send money and we can engineer this for you.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Such unreasonable paranoia about voting! </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I have on my desk right now two signed and sealed ballots for the California primary next week. I know that my partner voted for a different candidate than I did. I'm going to walk into the County office and drop these two ballots, probably unmodified :-), into a wooden box on their counter. Somehow our votes will be counted by some machine that reads ink in bubbles. Results next Tuesday. Perhaps some of our votes will count. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>And so our president will be chosen!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Please don't waste your design time engineering a solution for problems I don't have. Just give me a simple way to vote – securely and with a trusted record – more effectively and cheaply than those two silly envelopes on my desk.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>BTW, in Kenya almost all financial transactions are made through ordinary cell phones with passwords. And even here, in the U.S., my bank will accept deposits sent through pictures of signed checks from my phone. But we're much more paranoid here, especially about voting. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> David RR Webber (XML) [<a href="mailto:david@drrw.info">mailto:david@drrw.info</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 2, 2016 2:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>; CAVO <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Larry,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>That's why the USPS now accepts digital copies of money orders, instead of having to send the paper one.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Not! That could of course be digital too - but - you would need a way to track all that - matching digitally presented versions to repository. That's called Paypal, Google, Square or ApplePay et al.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Similarly registering to vote - concur - that can be a digital process - but then its gets more tricky. Yes - I can issue you with a digital voting token - but then how do I know you really cast that ballot? Parties could cast proxy votes for party members - and maybe there's nothing wrong with that - but - we're not there yet. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Unlike in the money order or check situation - where tracking who does what inbetween is not part of the process - with balloting it is. Except there's a twist - in the banking transaction - everything can be logged to a specific user entity - whereas in voting it has to be anonymous. And that is where things get problematic. It's a bit like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - the more anonymous you make it - the less you know what happened - the more you know what happened - the less anonymous.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>And then who do you trust? Personally I want to see 3 separate systems of record - and be able to cross check. So if 1 gets compromised its obvious. And then to compromise all 3 simultaneously - that's really hard to do.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>And it all needs to be open source and accredited.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Please send money and we can engineer this for you.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=replyBlockquote><div id=wmQuoteWrapper><div style='margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting<br>From: "Lawrence Rosen" <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:windowtext'>lrosen@rosenlaw.com</span></a>><br>Date: Thu, June 02, 2016 1:54 pm<br>To: "'CAVO'" <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org" target="_blank"><span style='color:windowtext'>cavo@opensource.org</span></a>><br>Cc: Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:windowtext'>lrosen@rosenlaw.com</span></a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I haven't executed a contract in recent years – even with the federal or state or county government – that wasn't immortalized by some form of electronic signature. Sometimes they also require a paper signature on paper forms that they file somewhere and then throw away. But I'm as legally bound by my scanned signature as I am by my hand-signed document.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>One of my clients recently complained about the boxes of printed documents that they passed, from year to year, to their non-profit volunteer corporate secretary. But instead, I told them, PDF copies of most documents, stored in an online repository with security and backup, is all anyone needs nowadays.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Registering and voting should be no more difficult than what the government already accepts on almost everything nowadays.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> David RR Webber (XML) [<a href="mailto:david@drrw.info" target="_blank">mailto:david@drrw.info</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 2, 2016 10:11 AM<br><b>To:</b> CAVO <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org" target="_blank">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Article</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>And these same people will be the first ones to cry "Foul" if someone gets on the ballot with dubious credentials that they can neither refute nor confirm - via some "Kickstarter" like campaign...</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' id=replyBlockquote><div id=wmQuoteWrapper><div style='margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: [CAVO] Article<br>From: Brent Turner <<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com" target="_blank">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</a>><br>Date: Thu, June 02, 2016 1:01 pm<br>To: CAVO <<a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank">CAVO@opensource.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><a href="http://www.mercurynews.com/michelle-quinn/ci_29959886/quinn-elections-should-ditch-paper-embrace-technology" target="_blank">http://www.mercurynews.com/michelle-quinn/ci_29959886/quinn-elections-should-ditch-paper-embrace-technology</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div></div></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" target="_blank">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" target="_blank">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>