<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div>Brent,</div><div><br></div><div>Concur - providing that "first count" validation is vital. Right now we are relying on matched paper ballots as the first resort fall back.</div><div><br></div><div>If you take that paper away then the 3 independent sources of record are the Gold / Platinium standard means digitally.<br></div><div><br></div><div>As history has shown us - being able to point out days, weeks or months later that so and so actually won the election is completely futile at that juncture.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks, David<br><br></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [CAVO] Auditing electronic voting<br>
From: Brent Turner <<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Sun, June 05, 2016 10:31 pm<br>
To: CAVO <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">My understanding is that both the Dechert Design and Dr. Gilbert's Prime lll qualify as simple and open source. <div><br></div><div>Hopefully the anticipated SF system will fit that suit ,too. </div><div><br></div><div>I do like strong audit capability for the obvious reasons.. but I also equate " audit -speak " to botched elections.. as it is a past tense proposition.. rather than " first count " focused.. </div><div><br></div><div>BT </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Lawrence Rosen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link="black" vlink="black" lang="EN-US"><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">David Webber wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">With a digital system you want built in verification and auditing.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sure. Our credit union had that too! Nothing wrong with letting the system check itself also.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">We just need the State to produce its digital elector registration database - ready to be imported into the voting system. That we can provide software to assist with.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">No way! There is no reason for a state to publish a list of voters. As long as I get my unique ballot from them just because I'm registered, and I can vote it anonymously and electronically, and the process is verified, you don't need to publish my name at all. I also pay my taxes without the IRS publishing anything! My emails with the IRS are private.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Since this CAVO list was created, I've been bothered that we're trying to create some <u>grand</u>, secure, open source voting system that will magically replace the current system. NO. That's not my goal. I want a <u>simple</u>, secure, open source voting system, no magic required, to allow more people to vote without paper ballots stuffed into boxes and scanned by proprietary machines.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I can register the copyright for that elections software with the Library of Congress with a simple online transaction. But you won't let me run it without three levels of independent record in every county elections office. That's over-kill.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">/Larry<u></u><u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:<a href="mailto:david@drrw.info" target="_blank">david@drrw.info</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 5, 2016 4:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> CAVO <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org" target="_blank">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Auditing electronic voting<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Larry,<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">All those same statistical tools are in play for election results "auditing" today that States perform and hire independent experts to perform.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I don't like any of them. It's too much fishing and hoping.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">With a digital system you want built in verification and auditing.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">That is why I mentioned 3 independent systems of record.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Now imagine (sigh I hate all these financial system comparisons - but what the) that your Credit Union accounts had 3 systems of record - one internally, a second held by the State, and a third held by an independent 3rd party (non-profit service provider). Transactions are triple blind integrated into each system and mirrored.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Now if someone is doing something shady - they have to corrupt all three systems - not just one.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">You want all 3 systems to agree on balance totals. You run a batch query against all accounts once a month (or more). If not - you audit to find out why. Notice this is much more effective than annual guessing - by which time the digital horse could have left 100 barns not just 1!<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">BTW - money laundering is not detected by your annual audit either - in this case money is deposited in one State - then withdrawn in another routinely. This would be akin to ballot stuffing.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I'm glad you were reassured by the annual hand-holding exercise at your Credit Union - frankly I view that as pure window dressing and legal liability avoidance. Oh we lost your money? Sorry, but we have all these safeguards (cough worthless) in place but it looks and sounds great. Welcome to America.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Cheers, David<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></div></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: [CAVO] Auditing electronic voting<br>From: "Lawrence Rosen" <</span><a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">><br>Date: Sun, June 05, 2016 3:05 pm<br>To: "'CAVO'" <</span><a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">cavo@opensource.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">><br>Cc: Lawrence Rosen <</span><a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">><u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Sometime after an election, before the votes are certified or perhaps only after a candidate has raised an express challenge to the posted results, electronic voting systems will need to be audited by an independent agency.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I was once chair of a federal credit union whose tens of thousands of accounts needed to be audited every year. That required sampling and confirmation procedures by a federal auditor. That required intelligent comparisons between cash deposited and cash distributed. And random credit union members were asked specifically – by the auditor – to verify their bank balances by comparing the credit union's records to their own. (This is like randomly comparing a voter's printed ballot with the vote actually counted.) The auditors had account numbers to work with, not personal names or individual wealth/poverty data. Even we board members didn't have access to individual account data.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">This was a required process. It was local, in our own offices. It was relatively brief every year. And it was thorough and reassuring to everyone. But it wasn't rocket science.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">/Larry<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br></span><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:blue">CAVO@opensource.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><br></span><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:blue">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></div></div></blockquote></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br> CAVO mailing list<br> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br> <a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div> <hr>_______________________________________________<br>
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