<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div>Larry,</div><div><br></div><div>You are right to compare the USA to a third world country - its getting there.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The Kenya system is called M-Pesa - "Mobile money". It is using a secure system invented in England - and the password is a simple PIN code.</div><div><br></div><div>Notice you will NOT be able to do this is the USA because the banks and the IRS do not want you doing that - creating an alternative financial system with no central tracking system - that actually empowers small business and entrepreneurship. Here we still use paper cash money for that purpose.<br></div><div><br></div><div>It is terribly inconvenient that people have to use old arcane paper ballots - but it is VERY necessary. You only have to look at how corrupt politicians are - and how adept they are at deflecting responsibility to realize that opening the flood gates to digital fraud is not prudent. Not to mention routine hacking of systems in 3 out of every 4 businesses in the USA.</div><div><br></div><div>Everything in the USA is being gamed. What is the real price of bread, milk, eggs, gas, cars, paper, sugar, corn... ? Again - the current primaries system tells you much. Want to make primaries voting all digital - so no one has any clue who actually voted, and for whom really?</div><div><br></div><div>May as well walk those envelopes over to your recycle bin and just toss them in there.</div><div><br></div><div>But I'm not paranoid - I just have a healthy distrust and cynicism built in.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers, David<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting<br>
From: "Lawrence Rosen" <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>><br>
Date: Thu, June 02, 2016 5:54 pm<br>
To: "'CAVO'" <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br>
Cc: Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>><br>
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</style><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">David Webber wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Please send money and we can engineer this for you.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Such unreasonable paranoia about voting! <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I have on my desk right now two signed and sealed ballots for the California primary next week. I know that my partner voted for a different candidate than I did. I'm going to walk into the County office and drop these two ballots, probably unmodified :-), into a wooden box on their counter. Somehow our votes will be counted by some machine that reads ink in bubbles. Results next Tuesday. Perhaps some of our votes will count. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">And so our president will be chosen!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Please don't waste your design time engineering a solution for problems I don't have. Just give me a simple way to vote – securely and with a trusted record – more effectively and cheaply than those two silly envelopes on my desk.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">BTW, in Kenya almost all financial transactions are made through ordinary cell phones with passwords. And even here, in the U.S., my bank will accept deposits sent through pictures of signed checks from my phone. But we're much more paranoid here, especially about voting. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> David RR Webber (XML) [<a href="mailto:david@drrw.info">mailto:david@drrw.info</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 2, 2016 2:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>; CAVO <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org">cavo@opensource.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Larry,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">That's why the USPS now accepts digital copies of money orders, instead of having to send the paper one.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Not! That could of course be digital too - but - you would need a way to track all that - matching digitally presented versions to repository. That's called Paypal, Google, Square or ApplePay et al.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Similarly registering to vote - concur - that can be a digital process - but then its gets more tricky. Yes - I can issue you with a digital voting token - but then how do I know you really cast that ballot? Parties could cast proxy votes for party members - and maybe there's nothing wrong with that - but - we're not there yet. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Unlike in the money order or check situation - where tracking who does what inbetween is not part of the process - with balloting it is. Except there's a twist - in the banking transaction - everything can be logged to a specific user entity - whereas in voting it has to be anonymous. And that is where things get problematic. It's a bit like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - the more anonymous you make it - the less you know what happened - the more you know what happened - the less anonymous.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">And then who do you trust? Personally I want to see 3 separate systems of record - and be able to cross check. So if 1 gets compromised its obvious. And then to compromise all 3 simultaneously - that's really hard to do.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">And it all needs to be open source and accredited.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Please send money and we can engineer this for you.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">David<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="replyBlockquote"><div id="wmQuoteWrapper"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: [CAVO] Online contracts and voting<br>From: "Lawrence Rosen" <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com"><span style="color:windowtext">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</span></a>><br>Date: Thu, June 02, 2016 1:54 pm<br>To: "'CAVO'" <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org"><span style="color:windowtext">cavo@opensource.org</span></a>><br>Cc: Lawrence Rosen <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com"><span style="color:windowtext">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I haven't executed a contract in recent years – even with the federal or state or county government – that wasn't immortalized by some form of electronic signature. Sometimes they also require a paper signature on paper forms that they file somewhere and then throw away. But I'm as legally bound by my scanned signature as I am by my hand-signed document.</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">One of my clients recently complained about the boxes of printed documents that they passed, from year to year, to their non-profit volunteer corporate secretary. But instead, I told them, PDF copies of most documents, stored in an online repository with security and backup, is all anyone needs nowadays.</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Registering and voting should be no more difficult than what the government already accepts on almost everything nowadays.</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">/Larry</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> David RR Webber (XML) [<a target="_blank" href="mailto:david@drrw.info"><u><span style="color:blue">mailto:david@drrw.info</span></u></a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 2, 2016 10:11 AM<br><b>To:</b> CAVO <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org"><u><span style="color:blue">cavo@opensource.org</span></u></a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Article</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">And these same people will be the first ones to cry "Foul" if someone gets on the ballot with dubious credentials that they can neither refute nor confirm - via some "Kickstarter" like campaign...</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">David</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="replyBlockquote"><div id="wmQuoteWrapper"><div style="margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: [CAVO] Article<br>From: Brent Turner <<a href="mailto:turnerbrentm@gmail.com" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">turnerbrentm@gmail.com</span></u></a>><br>Date: Thu, June 02, 2016 1:01 pm<br>To: CAVO <<a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">CAVO@opensource.org</span></u></a>></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.mercurynews.com/michelle-quinn/ci_29959886/quinn-elections-should-ditch-paper-embrace-technology" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">http://www.mercurynews.com/michelle-quinn/ci_29959886/quinn-elections-should-ditch-paper-embrace-technology</span></u></a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in;text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></div></div><div style="margin-left:.5in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">CAVO@opensource.org</span></u></a><br><a href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" target="_blank"><u><span style="color:blue">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</span></u></a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in;text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><hr align="center" size="3" width="100%"></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a target="_blank" href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org"><u><span style="color:blue">CAVO@opensource.org</span></u></a><br><a target="_blank" href="https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo"><u><span style="color:blue">https://lists.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</span></u></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div><hr>_______________________________________________<br>
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