<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi Tim,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Thank you for that great introduction, coupled with a little trepidation. Will it help if I say you responded perfectly!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>"Reply-all" is set to reply only to the list. Let me know if that works differently on your email client.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>(I copy myself on all my sent email, but there is no need to send me or any other list participant copies. The cavo@ list takes care of that for us, including archiving it all for your renewed future enjoyment.) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Tim apologizes in advance for any etiquette breach he will make in the future. Me too. Now let's move on. Take advantage of the fact that everything we say on this list is archived and think twice before saying anything offensive, and count to ten before complaining about something offensive said by others. Remember the Chatham House Rule. We're all part of a community. It may be too early to say so, but pretend we're all friends.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I personally find this challenge toward semi-public speaking in open source email communities to be a maturing experience. Some people, unfortunately, never learn to behave. Please keep your complaints on-list, and ask one of the list moderators (Brian and me and Patrick, so far) to remove anyone particularly spamming. We moderators have great powers that we hate to use! :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I've agreed with Brent to try to set up other smaller lists here, such as for technical activities. But quite frankly, we're a small enough group so far that breaking into subcommittees will make us too lonely. So talk here. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>/Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Tim Mayer [mailto:timbmayer@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 16, 2015 12:25 PM<br><b>To:</b> Lawrence Rosen; CAVO<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Open Source for use in public elections<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>So, I must admit that I am a novice regarding this particular email tool. For instance, I was not certain whether to 'Reply All', or just 'Reply', because I was not certain of the distinction.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Technical issues aside, I thought it might be appropriate here to deliver a message regarding my personal views surrounding open communication generally, as well as my thoughts regarding this project.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Generally, I prefer, if I am unusually patient or thoughtful, to only say those things that I would have no hesitation publishing. I find that if I consider my thoughts and feelings only, I might say or do anything. But, if I consider to whom I am speaking, I might be more patient and thoughtful about my utterances or actions.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>More disturbingly, I find that I am particularly more candid, okay direct to the point of cruelty, the better I know the person to whom I am speaking. And so, I might not be so patient and thoughtful, if I know you quite well.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>And therein lies the private versus public communication dichotomy for me. Indeed, I wish for those closest to me to know exactly how I feel viscerally, and at any given moment, not for any clarity, but rather for my own selfish reasons, reasonable or not. That defines my private communications, for better or for worse. But in my public communications, indeed wherein I am speaking to those with whom I am not as familiar, I am much more circumspect regarding my views on any particular matter. Not because I wish to deceive the listener, but rather I prefer to have my message heard rather than discarded summarily.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>So, what are private or secret meetings for? Letting go of restraint and thoughtfulness? Unbridled free thought? Just saying what one feels without consideration of an other? Perhaps such an environment is necessary from time to time, that is, to just let oneself go. Regeneration from compassion fatigue.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>So, my concern, with respect to the private/public issue of our communications regarding CAVO, comes down to one question: Is our policy regarding this issue advancing the cause of the voter or not?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I believe that if we were to air our dirty laundry, so to speak, in every detail, i.e., refrain from patience and thoughtfulness and then publish that outcome in every instance, may be doing a disservice to the voter. Because, I believe, that at times, thoughtfulness and patience is not always exhibited, and therefore things may be written that are regrettable and indeed reflect negatively on our efforts. We do not want to have our work dismissed summarily.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>That being said, I like the notion of being thoughtful and patient every time I wish to convey a thought to another, in our CAVO organization in particular. And, I believe that the voter would appreciate the fruits of an open and honest dialog regarding our efforts to develop an <i>open</i> source system on their behalf.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Additionally, private emails regarding any CAVO developments probably impede the speed and efficiency of communication, particularly in the beginning, requiring more meetings of our group for updates.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I will, for my part, use the group tool for all my communications regarding CAVO, and would encourage all the members to do the same...that is assuming I am even doing correctly right now...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Tim Mayer<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Lawrence Rosen <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>David is correct below. Proper etiquette on such online lists is sometimes a difficult skill learned over time. I fail at it too often, sometimes by being too brusque or critical in front of too many people at once. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>The formal rule I personally like everyone to follow is at <a href="http://www.chathamhouse.org/about/chatham-house-rule" target="_blank">http://www.chathamhouse.org/about/chatham-house-rule</a>. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Apache projects have both public lists (like cavo@) and smaller private lists where only some folks ("members") can participate. It is a continual battle to force Apache project teams to stop using private lists for anything other than management-related, contractual or legal issues. Even Apache open source project team elections are held on public lists. :-) All lists are archived.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Thanks again to <a href="http://opensource.org" target="_blank">opensource.org</a> for making this resource available to CAVO. We will slowly convert our CAVO participants to use it comfortably and politely.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:<a href="mailto:david@drrw.info" target="_blank">david@drrw.info</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 15, 2015 9:07 AM<br><b>To:</b> CAVO<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [CAVO] Open Source for use in public elections</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Larry,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Understood. However - private email is that - unless the person so indicates that you may distribute their correspondence.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>I certainly take affront when someone sends me an obviously targeted email and then Cc:'s a public mailing list - or the reverse - what was clearly a private note for someone's personal edification - then being forwarded publicly.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Everyone can use their judgement as to what is appropriate.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Having said that - I get the overall point - this is a collaboration service - and the more we share information - the better in terms of facilitating the overall work and achieving the broader objectives.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>David</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [CAVO] Open Source for use in public elections<br>From: "Lawrence Rosen" <<a href="mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com" target="_blank">lrosen@rosenlaw.com</a>><br>Date: Wed, April 15, 2015 11:46 am<br>To: <<a href="mailto:cavo@opensource.org" target="_blank">cavo@opensource.org</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>[I'm moving this email to cavo@]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>David Webber wrote:<br>> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>Clearly when dealing with external entities - it is certainly not good business practice to Cc: a mailing list!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Not so clearly.... Several states including California have open meetings laws relating to public government-related activities. Elections and voting systems are certainly that!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I'm sensitive to "political sensitivity" only in the context of open source software development. And quite frankly, having listened to some of these CAVO discussions over the past several months, it was the private parts that burned me up the most as being unnecessarily confidential and thus useless to the rest of us!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Let's learn to be open! Or at least, let's talk to each other openly about what it really means to be open source. That's why I'm here. What are you here for?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>/Larry</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org" target="_blank">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" target="_blank">http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>CAVO mailing list<br><a href="mailto:CAVO@opensource.org">CAVO@opensource.org</a><br><a href="http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo" target="_blank">http://projects.opensource.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cavo</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>